No matter who he beats, can calzaghe be the lbs4lbs greatest?

[LondonBB]

Firstly id like to say hi to everyone as this is my first post

I was recommended to this forum by a friend who says it is the most respected forum for boxing.

I have been looking at other forums which i wont mention but i have noticed something that seems very apparent.

It seems that joe calzaghe has a lot of haters, particularly stateside. I must also say he appears to have a lot of fans stateside aswell

But i wondered something, from looking at performances and also records and future fights...IF calzaghe beats hopkins, then waits a while (whilst the winner of johnson v dawson faces the winner of tarver v woods) and calzaghe then fights the overall champ of those bouts AND LETS SAY HE WINS which would make him totally undefeated, and undisputed champ at 2 divisions. Probably the 2 hardest divisions in boxing today...THEN he has one final fight and it is against pavlik at super middle weight...calzaghe comes down from light heavy to face pavlik and beats pavlik (i think he would, seeing as pavliks style is almost taylor made for joe to break, nothing away from pavlik as he is a great fighter who i like a lot)...so lets say IF calzaghe does this, WILL HE EVEN WIN THE RESPECT OF THE HATERS? I mean surely by being totally unbeaten, facing EVERY great fighter there has been in his divisions (aprt from jones who was not willing to fight calzaghe, and nowdays there is no point them fighting because joe would win comfortably but everyone will scream 'but jones is past it'...and yes he is past it, so theres no point).

IF this scenario occurs and joe ends his career being undefeated and undisputed champ of the both super middles and light heavies, having beaten the likes of mitchell, lacy, kessler, reid, eubank, hopkins, pavlik and dawson/woods/tarver/johnson (the overall winner of that match up)...plus been champ for 12 years!

Will he be rated the bet lbs4lbs fighter in the world?

Of course i have said 'IF', because it is possible that he might not be able to do that. Myself, as a british fan (you can tell by the name lol) believes that he is CAPABLE of doing it, because i have been watching joe for years, years before he came to the spotlight by his match up with lacy.

I understand why he is an unknown entity up till now in the us because he hasnt fought there, ALSO it is NECESSARY for him to fight and win big fights stateside for him to be called the best lbs4lbs fighter, i fully understand that. BUT i think that by beating hopkins, pavlik and dawson on us soil...he proves he is the champ without any doubt! IF he does that

When i compare him to the likes of roy jones, i look at jones now (notably not as good as he was in his prime), jones doesnt seem to be taking any flack for picking bayer to fight What if calzaghe choose to fight bayer? He would have people screaming at him that hes a p*ssy, would he not?

Why does jones want to fight bayer, when kessler ko'd bayer easily? WHY DOES JONES NOT WANT TO FIGHT KESSLER

Jones in his prime was an incredible talent. However if calzaghe goes on to beat hopkins, pavlik and dawson (lets say dawson becomes champ of the 4 light heavies battling it out atm)...then with a pro record of being unbeaten, undisputed champ at 2 divisions and champ for 12 years! Taking out EVERY other great fighter who stood in his path, fighting all over the world in europe and stateside (after the big matchups in the future where it is calzaghes chance to become a complete legendary fighter)...the records put calzaghe above jones in my opinion.

What about yuour opinion (thats why im asking this thread)...or is it a case of no matter who joe beats, no matter where he beats them, no matter if he is undisputed champ for 20 years lol, no matter if he is undefeated in 80 fights (exaggeration lol)...there will STILL be people who say 'NO, CALZAGHE IS A SLAPPER, HE IS NOT THE GREATEST, ROY JONES IS BETTER THAN HIM, FLOYD MAYWEATHER IS BETTER' etc etc?

So ive said what i think of jones...a once brilliant fighter (who is known to have avoided joe, for whatever reason), had incredible flair and skill YET people are willing to constantly make excuses for him. Jones beat tarver in 2003, people were saying he was at his peak then...then he loses 6 months later...and the excuse 'JONES IS PAST IT'

How can jones be past it, only 6 months later? I dont understand? Are people saying that jones was at his 'peak' for 3 years and then suddenly in 6 months he became 'past it'? Id like some opinions on this please guys

Whereas if joe calzaghe lets say beats pavlik, beats dawson and then loses to pavlik, will everyone make excuses for calzaghe and say 'thats because hes past it now'...NO...IN MY OPINION THEY WILL LOVE TO SHOUT HIM DOWN AND SAY THAT HE WAS NEVER A PRIME FIGHTER TO BEGIN WITH!

So why does jones get the special treatment? I could be wrong, but its just an observation ive made...like i said, im open minded and welcome any input and opinions

Lastly bringing me to mayweather. I believe that CURRENTLY floyd is the number 1 lbs4lbs greatest. However there are still some questions. For him to remain the best, id like to see him face cotto and win (and also beat de la hoya in this upcoming rematch).

IF calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson and pavlik all in the usa...why should he not go above mayweather in the lbs4lbs list? Afterall mayweather did not fight all the fighters in each of his divisions, he has so far not faced cotto, mosely,margerito, tszyu (in the past).

Whilst i think floyd is lbs4lbs number one atm, i have to say that IF joe calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson (or the winner of the light heavy eliminator battle) and pavlik...i think he has claim to be greater than floyd afterall he has NOT AVOIDED ANYONE THROUGHOUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER, IF HE COMES STATESIDE AND BEATS THOSE 3 GREAT CHAMPS, THE BEST THE US HAS.

Alternativelym should mayweather besat de la hoya in the rematch AND face cotto and beat cotto...then mayweather is the lbs4lbs greatest (but you could argue if calzaghe does what i outlined earlier that they would then be joint top together).

So...given the 'IF' that i spoke of. Yes im aware that joe calzaghe might not beat hopkins, pavlik and dawson/tarver/woods/johnson...but if he is the 'great' fighter that i truly believe he is and he does do it...SURELY THIS PUTS HIM AS THE BEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD?

Sorry for the longwinded post lol, but my friend says this is the best forum, thats why i went into so much detail

Hopefully this will raise some good discussion. Thanks everyone

[albsur2006]

The problem with moving someone past Floyd at P4P #1 is that it's not just opponents but Floyd's skill set to boxing insiders is so impressive. He can do everything in boxing and there are hardly any holes in his game. Plus, he's performed at a championship at 130, 135, 140, 147, and 154. It's not like he's fighting bums like maybe RJJ did, the guy has been fighting at the championship level at each weight class he's been to. Considering the fact that Floyd is still just a blown up light welterweight, that's really saying something. It's not like Floyd has been on the top 10 P4P list for a couple years, the guy has been top 10 P4P for more than a decade, he hasn't lost, and he keeps piling up quality win after quality win. I really don't understand these random people claiming someone else is p4p #1. That's Floyd's spot until he retires or loses.

With ALL that being said, JoeCal is the only person that I wouldn't have a problem moving past Floyd on the P4P list.

Manny Pacquiao is great and has great wins but he hasn't fought at enough weights despite being big enough. Plus, at 130, prime for prime, there's no way in hell I could ever see Pacquiao beating Floyd. No way.

I could see JoeCal moving past Floyd because Joe is such a briliant boxer. He just doesn't have enough wins against quality opposition to move past Floyd and hasn't competed at enough weights. But if he decivisely beats B-Hop, then maybe Pavlik/JT, and then another quality guy like Dawson. I personally wouldn't move JoeCal past Floyd but Joe's been so dominant for so long just like Floyd that I wouldn't have a huge problem with it.

[Kirkland Laing]

God could send a prime Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson down to earth and Calzaghe could beat them on consecutive nights and there'd still be legions of people telling us he was rubbish. You're always going to get a bunch of people who don't like one particular fighter no matter how good he is.

[Mar]

Without pac, cotto, or floyd loosing in the near future i don't see it happening for joe......it probably isn't as fair as it should be but with him staying over the pond for all these years with limited exposure to the casual fan i think he will probably retire before being ranked pfp best . I don't necessarily agree.....just what i think. And if he looses or looks anything but spectacular against b-hop his chances are even slimmer.

[Althugz]

I used to be one of those guys that couldn't stomach Joe but after that impressive win over Kessler he really gained my respect and I finally feel that he is the real deal (he probably always was but his opposition was just so bad).
However, for me, he started fighting quality opposition far too late in his career to be considered P4P..he started at the tail end of his career and that makes it so difficult to judge how he would have fared prime for prime against somebody. The only fight we can do that with in his career is the one against Kessler and that was impressive. He just needs/needed more of those fights for me.

[CutMeMick]

I could honestly say that if Joe beats Hopkins and anyone of these guys I could see him P4P #1.
Winky, Pavlik or the winner of Tarver-Woods.

- His last opponents would be Kess, Hopkins and Winky/Pavlik/Tarver-Woods.
- PBFs last opponents would be ODLH, Hatton, ODLH.

But I mean just look at that line up. What are the chances of that happening for Joe?

[Fenster]

TO regard Calzaghe as P4P no.1 would mean you believe he beats Floyd (and every other fighter in the world) in a mythical match-up with their size and weight leveled.

Calzaghe beating Hopkins, Pavlik and whoever else still doesn't mean he would beat Floyd should they meet in a fantasy scenario.. unless you choose to believe that of course

[eagle]

Calzaghe is a great fighter no doubt about it, but i find it hard to see him passing PBF unless Floyd loses.

For example. How is a win over a 40 odd yr old BHOP a better win for Joe C than a win for PBF over a mid 30's DLH?

PBF's next fight at 154 will be 24 pounds above the weight he was at when he first won a title, that'd be like Joe C fighting and winning at Cruiser against a top guy (He may well be able to do that.).

I think a win over BHOP may warrant Joe C being P4P 2 or 3, but he has to do something extraordinary to be number 1 whilst PBF is still winning.

[Taeth]

There is nothing Calzaghe has done or can do IMO that will make him deserve p4p supremacy. He is a great fighter, but his fight with Kessler was a lot closer than anyone would care to admint(especially if Kessler couldn't spar for the weeks leading up to the fight), and Bernard is going to be 43. Those two names along with Chris Eubanks make up his credible opponents, but only Kessler was anywhere near his prime. Now Joe, even though he is 35, is still near his peak like Hopkins was when he was 35, however Bernard isn't anywhere near his peak anymore, and he can't fight at the pace he used to in order to keep up with Calzaghe, and beat him with superior skill. Fighting Chad Dawson who is still green at the top level doesn't mean anything to me because he would do the same thing he did against Kessler which is fight at a pace Dawson isn't used to. Regardless of all this even Glen Johnson wins, I doubt Calzaghe can beat him as impressively as Hopkins did when they fought, I doubt he will ever fight the same resume HOpkins has foughten (Trinidad, Wright, ODLH, RJJ, Johnson, Tarver, etc.) or Floyd by the time he is finished.

All in all Calzaghe isn't as good as Floyd, if they were the same weight, which p4p tries to mimic, there is no way Calzaghe would beat the much faster, harder hitting(at least compared this version JOe), straighter punching Mayweather. IMO He would follow Mayweather around the ring who would use his footspeed to keep away, then Mayweather would counter him with right hands he, Calzaghe, would be too slow to avoid. Roy Jones Jr would beat him to the punch all night, and that fight wouldn't last the distance unless Roy would allow it do, but Roy, in his prime, would have caught Calzaghe in those inbetween place that nobody else can, and Calzaghe wouldn't be able to cope with his, Roy's, reaction speed or his hand/footspeed.

[GermanHitman]

I would say so.. I would LOVE TO SEE A FIGHT BETWEEN CALZAGHE AND PAVLIK

[WelshDevilRob]

Joe Calzaghe is fading and his hands are not what they used to be - he can't generate as much power. His chin and volume punching are still there and his superb timing but he is not the fighter he was. He's still very, very good and he'll beat Hopkins IMO.

I suppose when he finishes his career, then that is the right time to judge whether he has done enough.

[buhlestnoble]

Based on wins over Hopkins and pavlik I would seriously consider joe as p4p best based on having faced perhaps the toughest opposition of any current fighter.

Its difficult to overtake floyd unless you bt him. He is a great fighter

Taeth disagree with your opinion on the closeness of the calzaghe Kessler fight. It was a clear cut UD for joe and I haven’t heard anyone else comment otherwise. Your argument loses direction considering how very close floyd was to loosing to a past his best de la hoya.

Hopkins is a great boxer but overrated. When you look at his record the only other genuine middleweight greats he ever fought, jones and taylor (not a great imo), he lost to. His best wins came against fighters he had significant physical advantages over…de la hoya, Trinidad, wright and tarver who had to lose 40lbs to make weight. Joe will be rated above him one day.

IMO p4p list is based on a fighters record…..his level of opposition….his titles….over how many weight division…..and how skilled a boxer you think he is and his potential NOT who would win if they were the same division. How can you predict who would win if Vasquez and say klitschko fought at the same weight…..oooo Vasquez would have the speed klitshko the power etc lol. I believe that when you have ranked the fighters based on some of the criteria and others I first mentioned you have the best possible idea of who would win IF they were the same weight anyway.

Teath cant respect your opinion on how calzaghe v mayweather would pan out. Saying floyd would have the power advantage etc I just find it stupid arguament. Not to get dragged in too far I would say that joe possesses the athleticism and stamina that arguably de la hoya lacked in their very close 1st fight!

On when a fighter peaks and when he is on the way down. Lets be honest this is pretty much guess work. It seems convenient tho how whenever top American fighters lose ie jones and Hopkins….all of a sudden they are past there peak. Many fighters are supposedly finished by the age of 30 so how we can say that joe is still at his peak (whatever that means) is again not based on any real science. Show me his VO2 max, his bench press max, his 100m etc. He may have reached his physical peak 5 years ago for all we know.

The bottom line…. Calzaghe isn’t American and hasn’t fought there yet so he is not well respected as he would be if he had fought there. Its as simple as that really cos the American media tell us who the p4p best fighters are and they are the ones who build up the fighters. Like lennox lewis, calzaghe wont be respected fully until he is retired and his former opponents, take kessler as an example, have proven how good they are to the US audience

[GermanHitman]

Based on wins over Hopkins and pavlik I would seriously consider joe as p4p best based on having faced perhaps the toughest opposition of any current fighter.

Its difficult to overtake floyd unless you bt him. He is a great fighter

Taeth disagree with your opinion on the closeness of the calzaghe Kessler fight. It was a clear cut UD for joe and I haven’t heard anyone else comment otherwise. Your argument loses direction considering how very close floyd was to loosing to a past his best de la hoya.

Hopkins is a great boxer but overrated. When you look at his record the only other genuine middleweight greats he ever fought, jones and taylor (not a great imo), he lost to. His best wins came against fighters he had significant physical advantages over…de la hoya, Trinidad, wright and tarver who had to lose 40lbs to make weight. Joe will be rated above him one day.

IMO p4p list is based on a fighters record…..his level of opposition….his titles….over how many weight division…..and how skilled a boxer you think he is and his potential NOT who would win if they were the same division. How can you predict who would win if Vasquez and say klitschko fought at the same weight…..oooo Vasquez would have the speed klitshko the power etc lol. I believe that when you have ranked the fighters based on some of the criteria and others I first mentioned you have the best possible idea of who would win IF they were the same weight anyway.

Teath cant respect your opinion on how calzaghe v mayweather would pan out. Saying floyd would have the power advantage etc I just find it stupid arguament. Not to get dragged in too far I would say that joe possesses the athleticism and stamina that arguably de la hoya lacked in their very close 1st fight!

On when a fighter peaks and when he is on the way down. Lets be honest this is pretty much guess work. It seems convenient tho how whenever top American fighters lose ie jones and Hopkins….all of a sudden they are past there peak. Many fighters are supposedly finished by the age of 30 so how we can say that joe is still at his peak (whatever that means) is again not based on any real science. Show me his VO2 max, his bench press max, his 100m etc. He may have reached his physical peak 5 years ago for all we know.

The bottom line…. Calzaghe isn’t American and hasn’t fought there yet so he is not well respected as he would be if he had fought there. Its as simple as that really cos the American media tell us who the p4p best fighters are and they are the ones who build up the fighters. Like lennox lewis, calzaghe wont be respected fully until he is retired and his former opponents, take kessler as an example, have proven how good they are to the US audience

Good post.. even though it hurts me because Kessler is a fave of mine.. i agree. I'm American and i know what Calzaghe is capable of i don't really think anyone can beat him unless its pavlik.. B-Hop is gonna get eff'd up.

[Pugilistic]

as long as mayweather is still here then no,


welcome to saddos by the way

[donnydarkoIRL]

At this stage the pound for pound status will prove evasive for Joe.

Having blossomed in the eyes of the boxing public at such a late stage of his career, the essential fights are only becoming possible now at this advanced stage of his career.
Calzaghe, although a gifted natural athlete, a diligent trainer and a superb boxer, is slightly diminished now in comparison to the Calzaghe of a couple of years ago.

Problems with his hands coupled with his ever increasing age mean that the big fights do pose a threat. In any Calzaghe fight a broken hand is a possibility. As is the risk of his body ageing quickly.

Although viewed as his crowning glory, the win over Kessler did represent a different side of Joe. In terms of power he casnnot administer the same punches he did in his earlier career nor can he take the punches he did early in his career.

Not unlike his forthcoming adversary Bernard Hopkins, Calzaghe's game right now is based upon guile, intellect and expierience. His primary weapons are his speed coupled with his movement, useless to an inexpierienced boxer, but to a tactician like Calzaghe these tools can be sufficient in huge match ups.

However when the topic of pound for pound arises some doubt lingers.
The very term suggests something physical. To me it means who has the best brain coupled with the best physical ability.

Calzaghe although a brilliant boxer, an extremely fit man and as I've mentioned a diligent trainer, does not have the best physical game in the sport. In my eyes he will never be No.1 pound for pound in my eyes, because he din't get the big fights in his prime