Kell's competition 2004-early 2008?

[Ron Swanson]

What was the thinking behind his management? He has 6 opponents with more losses than all of Spence's opponents combined. And a couple more that had close to as many losses. Why was he in so awfully soft for so long?

[Master]

Hearn and sky probably building and padding his record. Cunts the lot of them.

This exposes Kell but for the fact he beat Porter in the USA.

[Alpha]

A little padding of the record.

[Primo Carnera]

What was the thinking behind his management? He has 6 opponents with more losses than all of Spence's opponents combined. And a couple more that had close to as many losses. Why was he in so awfully soft for so long?

There is no doubt that his record is padded to the max, but I'm not sure of the significance of going back to when he was 17-21 years old. It has very little bearing on what is happening now.
We will only find out on the night whether it was the right way to go.

[Alpha]

What was the thinking behind his management? He has 6 opponents with more losses than all of Spence's opponents combined. And a couple more that had close to as many losses. Why was he in so awfully soft for so long?

There is no doubt that his record is padded to the max, but I'm not sure of the significance of going back to when he was 17-21 years old. It has very little bearing on what is happening now.
We will only find out on the night whether it was the right way to go.

The Porter fight showed Brook is a contender.

[mikeeod]

What was the thinking behind his management? He has 6 opponents with more losses than all of Spence's opponents combined. And a couple more that had close to as many losses. Why was he in so awfully soft for so long?

There is no doubt that his record is padded to the max, but I'm not sure of the significance of going back to when he was 17-21 years old. It has very little bearing on what is happening now.
We will only find out on the night whether it was the right way to go.

The Porter fight showed Brook is a contender.

The GGG fight showed he has brass balls and the desire to fight the best/be great.

[Ron Swanson]

You folks got a little off topic. I'm not judging Brooke harshly or in any way suggesting it has any effect on what happens now.

The question was very straight forward, about his management. I don't understand it. To my knowledge(not much on this other than what I have heard which could easily be wrong) Kell had an extensive amateur resume. Certainly enough to not be facing guys with 80, 90, 100 losses 2/3 years into his pro career and guys with losing records into his 4th pro year.

I think my way of thinking is a bit misunderstood. When I think someone is good I have higher expectations of them. I think this might look like hating online. But if you only see the words that are there.....

[p4pking]

Yea I wondered that too because he always looked really good and wasn't some kid and all. He didn't really fight anyone good until Carson Jones, but then again that first fight was really tough for him, maybe he is/was just kind of a late bloomer and his handlers knew it or something. Even after the Porter win he went back to some soft touches and did nothing to prepare him for the GGG fight, weird career trajectory. I think Spence beats him but the fact he's taken that fight back at welter with no warm up of any sort should clearly dispel any idea that he's the problem.

[Ron Swanson]

But since the subject was broached of Brook/Spence. I watched 4 fights of each today and I think if Kell doesn't hurt Spence in the 1st 2 rounds he gets run over. I'm hoping for a great fight, I think each is the worst matchup for the other in the division.

[Ron Swanson]

Yea I wondered that too because he always looked really good and wasn't some kid and all. He didn't really fight anyone good until Carson Jones, but then again that first fight was really tough for him, maybe he is/was just kind of a late bloomer and his handlers knew it or something. Even after the Porter win he went back to some soft touches and did nothing to prepare him for the GGG fight, weird career trajectory. I think Spence beats him but the fact he's taken that fight back at welter with no warm up of any sort should clearly dispel any idea that he's the problem.

That's my point. Not knocking Kell. He's made it clear he will fight anyone. Just seems like he is/was a better fighter than they treated him as.

[Fenster]

Kell wasn't with Matchroom (Eddie Hearn) back then, he didn't sign with Eddie until 2011. Brook was notorious for not taking boxing serious, always missing weight, always in nightclubs and what not getting into trouble. He was beat up and stabbed in a nightclub long before his famous stabbing after the Porter fight. He fell out with several manager/promoters and even got kicked out of his current gym, Ingles, where he started boxing, before reconciling with them.

That's why during that period, not only was his competition just British journeymen, he was so inactive for a prospect. Even when he left Frank Warren for Eddie Hearn they predicted he would never amount to anything because he was too unprofessional.

He didn't have extensive amateur experience, he only had around 30-40 bouts, and didn't compete in any major championships, although was touted as a talent to watch.

The losses of his opposition means nothing. Errol Spence's trainer keeps bringing it up and i've seen it mention loads of times since by Spence fans/American pundits. However, during that period he faced some of Britains well known "loser" journeymen several times - Peter Buckley (189 losses) Earnie Smith (263 losses) Brian Coleman (139 losses). They have roughly 600 losses between them, so basically three opponents completely distort the figures.

[mikeeod]

You folks got a little off topic. I'm not judging Brooke harshly or in any way suggesting it has any effect on what happens now.

The question was very straight forward, about his management. I don't understand it. To my knowledge(not much on this other than what I have heard which could easily be wrong) Kell had an extensive amateur resume. Certainly enough to not be facing guys with 80, 90, 100 losses 2/3 years into his pro career and guys with losing records into his 4th pro year.

I think my way of thinking is a bit misunderstood. When I think someone is good I have higher expectations of them. I think this might look like hating online. But if you only see the words that are there.....

There is a proven model/philosophy of bringing fighters, even fighters with extensive amateur careers, along very slowly to transition effectively and make them a well rounded pro. Look at Roy, who was one of the greatest amateurs the US has had. His father brought him along very slowly, to the point that boxing writers and pundits were constantly pointing it out and complaining. Roy Sr. would tell them that it was his job to build his son into a champ who would last a long time, not rush Roy and make all of his money in the first few years.

Some great amateurs, like Oscar, Ray Leonard, and Loma, are able to transition quickly and take on tough competition relatively early in their careers. Others are rushed to make money and quickly find out their amateur experience didn't translate to the pros and their confidence is shattered.

[Fenster]

Carson Jones wasn't the first "good" fighter he faced, he was the first to give Brook a wake up call. Brook badly tired after semi-punching himself out and lost control after his nose was smashed to a bloody pulp, which prevented him from comfortably breathing, hence his attitude and training regime vastly improved, and by all accounts turned into a serious dedicated pro.

As we're playing numbers. Between his first British title shot in 2008 and the first Carson Jones fight in 2011, Brook's 11 opponents combined record was: -

305 wins / 48 losses, 12 losses came from former "world" champion Lovemore N'Dou alone.

The combined record of Errol Spence's last 11 opponents, which covers 2014-to-2017 is: -

246 wins / 36 losses, which includes his last two wins Algieri and Bundu (best opponents).

Brook's opponents win/loss record since Carson Jones 1 reads (last nine bouts): -

268 wins / 20 losses, 9 losses came from Carson Jones alone. Jones was 19-1, 14 KOs in the three years prior to facing Brook, with his only blemish being a disputed split decision (claimed he was robbed).

[Ron Swanson]

Now we have gotten to the proper answers. I appreciate the information. I didn't know this stuff about Kell's behavior years ago.

In Carson 1 , did they say he punched himself out? I watched it yesterday and it didn't seem like he threw enough to punch himself out.(although he did throw more and harder before Carson started to the body)It seemed like when Jones switched to only attacking the body it troubled Kell. And after Kell was clearly protecting the body he was open to the head.

Either way improved dedication/training clearly helped.

[Fenster]

Brook punching himself out is my throw away recollection, not really meant literally, just as I recall the fight.

However, without doubt Carson's pressure and punches were the no.1 instrumental factor in Brook's sag. And as we're all well aware Spence is a terrific body puncher, i'm certain it's a big danger not lost on Kell or his team either.