Did that fight really make people believe that Manny will be able to beat Floyd?

[Taeth]

I remember after Floyd beat Marquez people were starting to retract their belief that Manny would just run rampant on Floyd if they fought. Then Manny faced COtto and Clottey and that instilled the same enthusiasm in his fans until Floyd beat up Mosley whom many felt both Manny and Floyd were ducking. THen Manny faced the guy who Floyd has been given the most flack for not fighting in Antonio Margarito, and Manny has looked great, but does anyone think that Floyd wouldn't have pitched an absolute shut out against a guy as ordinary in skill as Antonio?

To me Manny has been hand fed the same makeup of opponent since moving up in weight. They have given him guys who allow Manny to make the most of his style and his speed. Diaz, ODLH(weight-drained), Hatton, Cotto, CLottey, and Margarito are all guys who come forward, and with the exception of a younger Oscar and Clottey they are all easy to hit. I will be the first to give Manny credit for looking absolutely amazing and being so tireless in training so that he could give the kind of performances he did, but these were all guys right there in front of him, and when anyone stands just right there in front of Manny they are going to lose. The one guy actually of all of them that was IMO the most impressive win for Manny was against Hatton, because he actually has fast footwork and he uses angles coming in, but he couldn't overcome those huge mistakes that he makes against southpaws in particular, and Manny was the absolutely antithesis of the type of guy hatton could get away with those mistakes again. But these guys made Manny look like a non-stop punching machine with power, counter punching ability, a great chin, and great footwork, but I would like to disagree to a certain extent this belief. I think it's curious that Manny was able to throw more punches than he ever did earlier in his career against guys so much bigger than him, but then I looked a little more closely. Manny's angles, combinations all came when his opponents were rooted to the ground. When Manny was dancing around these guys, they were simply following him, and standing their ground. Manny was basically given a punching bag that followed him around, and nobody looks faster or better on a heavybag than Manny Pacquiao. Go back and watch Pacquiao-marquez II and see Marquez either beat Manny to the punch with his right hand or take a step back to get just out of range of Manny's attack. This is from a guy who isn't even a particularly good defensive fighter, but he had a antidote to Manny's offense that looked so relentless against Morales two fights earlier, and watch Barrera go against Manny the second time. Or Jorge Solis, watch how that movement took away Manny's punch output.

Now I think Floyd would mostly come forward against Manny, but I think it would be in a similar way he did against Judah. I don't think he would be particularly lead leg heavy, and he would stay light on his feet so if Manny tried to come in with a combination that he could move away quickly and wait for Manny to be off balance before coming in, but I think he would also use similar tactics as Marquez and beat Manny to the punch because Manny kind of drops his hands before he ever throws punches in bunches, and a guy like Floyd could tee off on that. Furthermore watch how good offensively Mosley looked against Margarito, he looked amazingly fast, well conditioned, etc, etc. Even at the advanced stage of his career, but Floyd negated him, not because he was physically faster than Mosley as much as he was so much sharper in the ring. Now I saw Manny look great throwing punches at Margarito, Cotto, CLottey, etc, but I also saw Manny getting hit by punches on the outside, he is an amazing combination puncher, but he isn't the greatest boxer on the outside, and I think all it take is movement to dissipate Manny's offensive combinations, and then you have Manny at his weakest element and that's trying to box like Mayweather, Leonard, RJJ, Hopkins do. Take away his output and he is like any other fast fighter that isn't "different". What makes Manny different is his speed and power combined with his stamina. Floyd arguably has better stamina and vastly superior technique with the same speed. We've seen Manny exploited in the fact that he lacks true technique and I don't think his recent fights have forced him to change that. In fact I think his sparring in preparation for this fight prove that if Manny isn't at his fastest that he has a hard time with relatively ordinary fighters. Whereas a guy with really great technique can adapt way easier to variables in the ring.

[rjj tszyu]

Nah Floyd won't be moving forward and will be countering Pac all day long!

[Dizaster]

Any time I doubt against Floyd, I just go back and watch his old fights... The mind can distort things over time and you can really convince yourself of anything if you think it about things a certain way...

Until anyone makes judgment about Pac's chances, go and watch those fights.. And remember what was thought of his opponents before they faced Mayweather... And how little effect any of their "assets" had against him..

[Taeth]

Exactly my point, I would almost always put my money on the guy who stops the other guy from doing what they want to do as opposed to the guy who needs to do his thing in order to win. We've seen Mayweather change it up and have actually seen him fight any type of fight necessary to trouble his opponent, we haven't seen Manny change it up, we've just seen him, excuse the grammar, out offensive offensive fighters because he hits faster, longer, harder, etc.

[Tysonbruno]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

[generalbulldog]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

I love 20/20 hindsight analysis.

[0james0]

Am I the only person who saw a performance full of holes from Pac in that fight?

He got tagged way too easy on numerous occasions and against someone with better timing and defence, he could have really got hurt then.

Pac was good, but from that performance I didn't see anything new that I think Floyd would be scared of, if anything I saw signs of aging where Pac is very slowly getting worse not better. Undeniable talent and I love the guy, but I think the longer the PBF fight takes to happen, the more chance there is Pac loses.

[Dizaster]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

I love 20/20 hindsight analysis.

Yeah 20/20 hindsight analysis is funny... It's also funny how Shane beating Margarito at 147 is a completely legitimate win, and Floyd beating Shane at 147 is a legitimate win, yet Pac giving Margarito an extra 3 pounds of 150, is "making him kill himself to make weight"... Forget that their was 17 pounds different on fight night and Margarito rehydrate as you would expect of a fit fighter..

And it's easy to say these opponents had question marks over them, but aside from Oscar, each would still be favorite to beat 9 out of 10 guys in their division.....

Floyd and Pac suffer the same problem.. They dominate their opponents so thoroughly that people can easily say that they are "past it" or "hand picked for their style"..

But against anyone else they would be competitive at the least, and an insurmountable challenge in probable reality...

At 140 or 147 or 154, who would you have given Pac more credit for beating in this fight? And you have to take into account the fight needs to at least sell a little.. Yes money does matter to these guys.. But's it's apples to apples when picking a fighter for them.. They'll completely dominate, and someone will say they were hand picked for his style...

Pac is just in a different league to those around him.. Same as Floyd... I gave up detracting from Floyds accomplishments long ago.. The fact is, they take fighters who are better than everyone else, and make them look like they have serious question marks over them...

I guess unless someone is in a war and only JUUUUST win,,,, unless the fight isn't TOO easy, people will say they beat an overrated, underdone fighter.... Maybe Pac should have given Margarito 5 rounds and made him look closer to Pac's level of greatness, to win over the people who see an outstanding performance, and instead of calling that performance like it is,,,, turn and just look at why the other person wasn't competitive...

Sometimes, just sometimes, fighters dominate because they are that good.. Not because their opponents are useless..

But people will go on saying that forever if they want to explain why someone wins so thoroughly.. i'm over it...

[skel1983]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

So how about a comparision with Floyd

That was a woeful effort, did You miss Hatton v Malinaggi??

[Howlin Mad Missy]

can't be arsed reading the whole thread but I'll say this because it's what I said to whoever would listen BEFORE the fight. Margarito was there as a lump of wood to make Manny look good and get another title/weight whatever.

The surprising thing was that Margarito was able to tag him, not enough & not in combinations....that being said with Floyds hand and foot speed what makes people think Manny will have a free run of things against PBF.

Neither need each other to cement their HOF status but history will kick both their asses if it doesnt happen.

Can't fault Margaritos heart either that eye was causing problems from round 4/5.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

Just out of curiosity, can you answer for me this question. When do you think Pacquiao and Mayweather reached their prime and when do you think it started declining, or do you still consider them to be in their prime?

[JonnyFolds]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

I think Floyds opponents and apparent circumstance in those fights are more of a joke. But even if you can take away these bits and pieces from the fights... HOW did Pac win? He came in there and TOOK the title from the opponents. Sorry but Baldomir Vs Mayweather will never go down as the "linear/unified title" being passed down. Not the same one that SRL, Starling, RayRob or Benitez fought for anyway.

With regards to Cotto and Clottey (highlighted): How can you draw a comparison by using one guys "near loss" to another guys "clear win"? Pick one way or the other. If that ain't straddling the fence I dunno what is..

Pac just proved he would take a paycheck that Mayweather was not willing to cash years ago. And I truly believe Margarito is a better fighter than he was 3-5 years ago. Marg would have been out in 3-4 back then against Pac.


My favorite thing about Pac Margarito? ... Roach said he would knock Marg out in the 3rd and he almost did (in the 4th). THAT is something you could definitely count Mayweather out of being about to do. And I think few people on here took Roach seriously when he said that.

[LukeH]

I still believe 100% Floyd beats Pac no problem i think Roach and Pacquiao just do a good job at fooling everyone end of the day these recent opponents have recently been beaten or have had to make a catchweight or both.

Morales washed up Zahir Raheem beat him easy for god sake

David Diaz very nearly lost to the washed up Morales

De la Hoya weight drained beyond belief had to be re hydrated by IV before fight

Hatton was basically done after Mayweather look at the Lazcano fight

Cotto already been demolished by Margarito and nearly lost to Clottey and had to weigh 145lbs

Clottey just came to survive 12 rounds had been beaten by Cotto already

Margarito had been demolished by Mosley in his fight before last and was having to come down to 150lbs

I think Floyds opponents and apparent circumstance in those fights are more of a joke. But even if you can take away these bits and pieces from the fights... HOW did Pac win? He came in there and TOOK the title from the opponents. Sorry but Baldomir Vs Mayweather will never go down as the "linear/unified title" being passed down. Not the same one that SRL, Starling, RayRob or Benitez fought for anyway.

With regards to Cotto and Clottey (highlighted): How can you draw a comparison by using one guys "near loss" to another guys "clear win"? Pick one way or the other. If that ain't straddling the fence I dunno what is..

Pac just proved he would take a paycheck that Mayweather was not willing to cash years ago. And I truly believe Margarito is a better fighter than he was 3-5 years ago. Marg would have been out in 3-4 back then against Pac.


My favorite thing about Pac Margarito? ... Roach said he would knock Marg out in the 3rd and he almost did (in the 4th). THAT is something you could definitely count Mayweather out of being about to do. And I think few people on here took Roach seriously when he said that.

In regards to Pac going in there and TAKING the title... in comparison to Floyd going in there and what Sneaking it out the back door? I dont see why people have to belittle one or the other just because they have different styles. Why can't you appreciate PBF going in there and outboxing opponents while barely receiving a scratch? The same as some people bashing Pac for whatever reason. It's ridiculous to be honest.

[JazMerkin]

I think Floyds opponents and apparent circumstance in those fights are more of a joke. But even if you can take away these bits and pieces from the fights... HOW did Pac win? He came in there and TOOK the title from the opponents. Sorry but Baldomir Vs Mayweather will never go down as the "linear/unified title" being passed down. Not the same one that SRL, Starling, RayRob or Benitez fought for anyway.

With regards to Cotto and Clottey (highlighted): How can you draw a comparison by using one guys "near loss" to another guys "clear win"? Pick one way or the other. If that ain't straddling the fence I dunno what is..

Pac just proved he would take a paycheck that Mayweather was not willing to cash years ago. And I truly believe Margarito is a better fighter than he was 3-5 years ago. Marg would have been out in 3-4 back then against Pac.


My favorite thing about Pac Margarito? ... Roach said he would knock Marg out in the 3rd and he almost did (in the 4th). THAT is something you could definitely count Mayweather out of being about to do. And I think few people on here took Roach seriously when he said that.

Haha dude, I really have to wonder what Floyd did to you? Are you Josie Harris or that security guard he 'battered' with his finger? Even the Pacfans, Miles & Titofan don't hate him as much as you.

As it is, no matter how much you may dislike it, the lineal Welterweight title Floyd took from Baldomir was the SAME one that SRL, SRR, Starling & Benitez fought for. If it makes you feel better he took it for a 2nd time off Shane, so at least one of those has to count for you (unless you follow the less credible lineage of Ring mag).

I love the idea that Margarito is better now than 3-5 years ago. Yep, one-sided losses to both Shane & Manny as well as an unimpressive win over a club fighter in Robert Garcia really support that theory

Your favourite thing was that they said they would knock him out but didn't

Was your favourite thing about the PBF-Shane fight that Ellerbe said he'd stop him & Floyd staggered him a couple of times, but didn't put him down or away?

I simply can't get how because people like one fighter or dislike another they mock either's accomplishments. Both these guys actually do have resumes that at least stand up against the best to ever do it, and in 10 years when people are whinging about the dominance of Rau'shee Warren or whoever is on top then, they'll be harking back to these two in the same way people hark back to the Duran, SRL, Hearns era.

I have noticed that every time one of them fights there are dozens of posters who cannot see how they live with the other. In all honesty, it's close I could see a win for either although my gut sees a win for Mayweather by decision.

[Taeth]

Nah Floyd won't be moving forward and will be countering Pac all day long!

That's what people told me he would do against Shane.