Why does USA amateurs suck at amateurs ? But then shine as a pro ?

[denilson200]

With the Rio Olympics coming up. I guess it's a good time to talk amateur boxing. As that's where a fair few of the future pro stars will come from. But this specifically about how poorly USA amateur boxing has been at recent Olympics

At amateur level the USA's rep does not match their performance. But then when you look at how many of them get on as a pro, it all changes and many go onto to have very successful careers.

When you look at the USA boxers from London 2012

Dominic Breazeale – Represented USA at super heavy at London 2012 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 17-0 as a pro.

Micheal Hunter – Represented USA at heavy at London 2012 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 10-0 as a pro.

Marcus Browne– Represented USA at light heavy at London 2012 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 18-0 as a pro.

Errol Spence – Represented USA at Welter at London 2012 (Quarter Final) now 20-0 as a pro

Jamel Herring – Represented USA at light welter at London 2012 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 14-0 as a pro.

Jose Ramírez – Represented USA at light weight at London 2012 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 17-0 as a pro.

Joseph Diaz – Represented USA at Bantam at London 2012 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 19-0 as a pro.

Rau'shee Warren - Represented USA at fly at London 2012 (beaten in his Rnd 1) now 13-1-1 as a pro.

It's still early on but you would imagine a fair few of them being a world champ and maybe one or two being potential stars

Even when you go back Olympic 2008.

Deontay Wilder (Needs no introduction) he won bronze in Beijing 2008 as a heavy and of course everyone knows what he’s gone on to do.

Demetrius Andrade who again needs little introduction, was beaten in the quarters as a welter in the Beijing 2008 Olympics but is now a quality unbeaten world light middle champion.

Javier Molina who represented USA at L.Welter at Beijing 2008 (beaten in Rnd 1) now 14-0 as a pro.

Sadam Ali - Represented USA at Lightweaight at Beijing 2018 (beaten in Rnd 1) challenged an lost to Jessie Vargas in a world title shot.

So why do USA seem to fail so miserably at the amateurs but yet still produce quality fighters at the pro level ?

[Silkeyjoe]

Shine as a pro? US fighters have been on the decline for a good while now. I personnaly think most turn pro too early and would have better pro careers if stayed amateur a bit longer.

Shakur Stevenson has a great chance to medal next year but outside that I dont see any US hopefuls

[Master]

There has been a decline, whereas the UK fighters have improved.

The standard has declined because there are easier routes to make a living and the hunger is not there.

[IamInuit]

You don’t get spoon fed no hopers in the amateurs. When you see the guy for the first time its in the ring. With few exceptions on that list those people get guided to their "0" records. They are creations.

For the most part over the last decade Americans are matched soft. Wilder is a great example boasting a big 0 record having not done a thing really. Same with Thurman. Gets cold feet for a Shawn Porter fight. Lots of mouth on these guys though.

But the elephant in the room is that they are effectively 2 different sports.

Count your blessings though. Look at Rigo. An incredible record and fighter but he's still fighting in the cheap seats. Meanwhile you have frauds calling themselves champions raking in tens of millions of dollars.

[Britkid]

The UK had the London Olympics; there has been lots and lots of investment put into all Olympic sports and boxing has taken advantage.

The connection is, the US post the collapse of the Warsaw pact has seemingly lost interest in the Olympics and this has cost the amateur sport. And when the US is not successful at a sport it seems to die off for them, boxing is slowly going that way.

[Master]

So the key in investment and exposure of the sport results in better talent attracted to the game.

[denilson200]

You don’t get spoon fed no hopers in the amateurs. When you see the guy for the first time its in the ring. With few exceptions on that list those people get guided to their "0" records. They are creations.

For the most part over the last decade Americans are matched soft. Wilder is a great example boasting a big 0 record having not done a thing really. Same with Thurman. Gets cold feet for a Shawn Porter fight. Lots of mouth on these guys though.

But the elephant in the room is that they are effectively 2 different sports.

Count your blessings though. Look at Rigo. An incredible record and fighter but he's still fighting in the cheap seats. Meanwhile you have frauds calling themselves champions raking in tens of millions of dollars.

Great post. Good points.

And Rigo ? I mean. Look. You're not gonna see him begging for change in the streets but it's almost a disgrace the way the boxing world has treated him. He must be foaming at the mouth at the big fights and big paydays he's missing out on.

He'd be highly favoured to beat Frampton and Santa Cruz, but they're gonna make mint fighting each other in the summer, meanwhile he was gonna fight Jazza Dickens on a Terry Flanagan undercard.

It beggars belief. And I agree with all your points about the amateur system

[IamInuit]

You don’t get spoon fed no hopers in the amateurs. When you see the guy for the first time its in the ring. With few exceptions on that list those people get guided to their "0" records. They are creations.

For the most part over the last decade Americans are matched soft. Wilder is a great example boasting a big 0 record having not done a thing really. Same with Thurman. Gets cold feet for a Shawn Porter fight. Lots of mouth on these guys though.

But the elephant in the room is that they are effectively 2 different sports.

Count your blessings though. Look at Rigo. An incredible record and fighter but he's still fighting in the cheap seats. Meanwhile you have frauds calling themselves champions raking in tens of millions of dollars.

Great post. Good points.

And Rigo ? I mean. Look. You're not gonna see him begging for change in the streets but it's almost a disgrace the way the boxing world has treated him. He must be foaming at the mouth at the big fights and big paydays he's missing out on.

He'd be highly favoured to beat Frampton and Santa Cruz, but they're gonna make mint fighting each other in the summer, meanwhile he was gonna fight Jazza Dickens on a Terry Flanagan undercard.

It beggars belief. And I agree with all your points about the amateur system

Agreed. He was supposed to be fast tracked from the moment he got off the boat but he had the unfortunate timing and bad luck to be locked in with Arum and being a master boxer. In a world of 30 sec time slots and many fans not giving a shit about pugilism. I mean, his own promoter called him boring and HBO did not want him on the air because he didn't produce ko's and made everyone look pedestrian. Punished for something (a style) that Floyd made a billion on. The same kinds of things were being said about Ward. Today there is no room in boxing for pugilists lol. Its devolved and considerably. This may have started at the in with a bang success of the MMA etc I dont know. Perhaps this generations short attention span. In order to produce the desired effect you implement a system of mismatches.

[greynotsoold]

A lot of top U.S. amateurs turn pro instead of fighting amateur into their mid 20s. Hector Tanajara Jr for example, was a six time national champ. He turned pro at 18, trains with Robert Garcia, flights for GBP, and is 6-0.
The same gym that produced Hector has two juniors ranked #1 in the world.

[J_Undisputed]

because they fight for free in the amateurs... I'm not saying there aren't kids that want o be the best, but there's a difference between wanting to be the best and having the will , the means and the dedications to do something about it.

If you look at the countries that tend to rack up medals in any Olympic sport. They tend to be the countries that are almost militant in discipline. hell in some of the worse countries there's consequences for failure. Being a national athlete is the only way to get your family out of poverty and keep them protected. That keeps an athlete focused.

Still there are other countries that start their athletics programs in the military. (like Russia used to... Their hockey team owned the worlds pros in the 80's. Discipline, practice, and bonding against a common oppressor keeps athletes focused.

The kids we have here aren't getting paid, aren't being broken down and built from the ground up in military environments. Their incentive, one day you're gonna be famous and make a millions... Not "you'll represent your country and bring home the glory so lets see some nationalistic pride". US athletes only try when it counts. National pride, my fellow citizens, lift my nations morale... pffft show me the money...

That's why even if pros join the olympics, it won't mean anything. Flash, smack talking and all that nonsense that goes on in the pros is frowned upon in the olympics. That's why every country in the world hates us. We dont know what humble is. We don't know when to shut up, keep our heads down and keep pushing till all the works done. Where as hard work and humility is the staple of life and survival in many countries. Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.

[Mr140]

There not even the same sport when you see how they are scored and how they fight. I mean pro fighting and am are so different when it comes down to how they score points it is night and day. Not to mention if you are a power puncher i file the pro game suits you better.

[Ron Swanson]

because they fight for free in the amateurs... I'm not saying there aren't kids that want o be the best, but there's a difference between wanting to be the best and having the will , the means and the dedications to do something about it.

If you look at the countries that tend to rack up medals in any Olympic sport. They tend to be the countries that are almost militant in discipline. hell in some of the worse countries there's consequences for failure. Being a national athlete is the only way to get your family out of poverty and keep them protected. That keeps an athlete focused.

Still there are other countries that start their athletics programs in the military. (like Russia used to... Their hockey team owned the worlds pros in the 80's. Discipline, practice, and bonding against a common oppressor keeps athletes focused.

The kids we have here aren't getting paid, aren't being broken down and built from the ground up in military environments. Their incentive, one day you're gonna be famous and make a millions... Not "you'll represent your country and bring home the glory so lets see some nationalistic pride". US athletes only try when it counts. National pride, my fellow citizens, lift my nations morale... pffft show me the money...

That's why even if pros join the olympics, it won't mean anything. Flash, smack talking and all that nonsense that goes on in the pros is frowned upon in the olympics. That's why every country in the world hates us. We dont know what humble is. We don't know when to shut up, keep our heads down and keep pushing till all the works done. Where as hard work and humility is the staple of life and survival in many countries. Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.

You should travel. I spend 6 months a year traveling the world and I don't see hate at all. Quite the opposite. It's hard to relax because when people find out you are American everyone wants to talk.

Those that catch hate probably deserve it. I have not one example of one person saying they hate America. Just today I had 3 guys tell me how much they love America. And it happens every day.

As for Amateurs sucking, it's a combination of things. Our gyms teach a pro style, our guys turn pro young, our best turn pro younger, and there simply aren't as many good trainers out there as there used to be.

What I find more curious is the completely different standard African Americans specifically are held to. Look at Crawford. If he beats Postol I guarantee he will move up, again. Because that is what is expected. While others can be rated higher not even fighting the good guys in a shitty division. Same division same crap opponents, but not African American, as long as you keep winning you are great. But if you are African American it's not even close to enough, you MUST challenge yourself. I'm fine with that, but it should apply to all.

[Silkeyjoe]

because they fight for free in the amateurs... I'm not saying there aren't kids that want o be the best, but there's a difference between wanting to be the best and having the will , the means and the dedications to do something about it.

If you look at the countries that tend to rack up medals in any Olympic sport. They tend to be the countries that are almost militant in discipline. hell in some of the worse countries there's consequences for failure. Being a national athlete is the only way to get your family out of poverty and keep them protected. That keeps an athlete focused.

Still there are other countries that start their athletics programs in the military. (like Russia used to... Their hockey team owned the worlds pros in the 80's. Discipline, practice, and bonding against a common oppressor keeps athletes focused.

The kids we have here aren't getting paid, aren't being broken down and built from the ground up in military environments. Their incentive, one day you're gonna be famous and make a millions... Not "you'll represent your country and bring home the glory so lets see some nationalistic pride". US athletes only try when it counts. National pride, my fellow citizens, lift my nations morale... pffft show me the money...

That's why even if pros join the olympics, it won't mean anything. Flash, smack talking and all that nonsense that goes on in the pros is frowned upon in the olympics. That's why every country in the world hates us. We dont know what humble is. We don't know when to shut up, keep our heads down and keep pushing till all the works done. Where as hard work and humility is the staple of life and survival in many countries. Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.

You should travel. I spend 6 months a year traveling the world and I don't see hate at all. Quite the opposite. It's hard to relax because when people find out you are American everyone wants to talk.

Those that catch hate probably deserve it. I have not one example of one person saying they hate America. Just today I had 3 guys tell me how much they love America. And it happens every day.

As for Amateurs sucking, it's a combination of things. Our gyms teach a pro style, our guys turn pro young, our best turn pro younger, and there simply aren't as many good trainers out there as there used to be.

What I find more curious is the completely different standard African Americans specifically are held to. Look at Crawford. If he beats Postol I guarantee he will move up, again. Because that is what is expected. While others can be rated higher not even fighting the good guys in a shitty division. Same division same crap opponents, but not African American, as long as you keep winning you are great. But if you are African American it's not even close to enough, you MUST challenge yourself. I'm fine with that, but it should apply to all.

Yes he should travel more.

No African Americans arent held to higher standards than other races in boxing! Crawford will move up looking for big money fights. Hes also a monster at 140. Hes not gonna kill himself making weight for much longer.

[ykdadamaja]

The amateur programme is not what it used to be anymore. Guys that are athletic are taking other sports and end up in college- basketball, football, baseball and other endeavours. Plus, we are seeing the continued ravages of the drug culture in America- it really steals lives away from the poorer and lower middle class folks, the folks that typically make up the boxing elite class.

With that being said, this is a time for US Amateur boxing to make a push and become more relevant. While other programmes have improved- the Eastern Europeans in particular, and for some strange reason South Korea and China are doing better than they once did in previous years in the sport, that does not mean the USA can't improve their lot.

Even Latin American/Caribbean fighters are upping their game. It used to be that Mexico hardly had any talent at the amateur level, let alone Nicaragua, Panama and Columbia. But now, along with Cuba and the Dominican Republic and to some extent Argentina, you have rising stars coming out of all of the aforementioned countries in addition to Jamaica and Trinidad. Fighters from Latin America and The Caribbean used to be few and far between, but now if an American goes up against anyone that has a 60 plus fight win record from that region, odds are even where as back in the late eighties going backward it used to be chalk for America.

They just need to promote the sport to kids again. Tell these soccer moms to shut their yaps and get their kids into a real sport!