Where do you rank Pernell Whitaker on the all-time great list ?????

[IamInuit]

Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.

Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.

There is truth in that but I cant help but be the sum of my parts. I try to be as objective as I can but also believe the reverse is true. Some believe boxing started in 1990 and anyone that came before that couldn't compete which is ridiculous and I wont go into that here. And the fact remains that some of these earlier guys were as good as people say they were.

It would be interesting to gather a top 15 Saddo atg list based on voting by the members in every weight class.

[p4pking]

Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.

Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.

There is truth in that but I cant help but be the sum of my parts. I try to be as objective as I can but also believe the reverse is true. Some believe boxing started in 1990 and anyone that came before that couldn't compete which is ridiculous and I wont go into that here. And the fact remains that some of these earlier guys were as good as people say they were.

It would be interesting to gather a top 15 Saddo atg list based on voting by the members in every weight class.

Hey for sure, and boxing is a lot different than most sports in that we'll never know. I don't consider you an offender here by any means either. I'm just of the opinion that many, if not most people who have watched any sport for years tend to be less objective about the modern landscape of it, when it should be the other way around. It's a nostalgia thing as much as anything else imo.

[IamInuit]

Just because guys have been around forever doesn't mean they are any more objective or less prone to revisionist history, if anything the opposite is true imo. I think many people are always biased towards the fighters which turned them on to the sport. The younger members of this forum will probably grow old talking about how so and so would have never beat a prime Roy Jones or Pacquiao, no matter what they learn about the sport or who else is around in 30 years.

Fritzie Zivic probably wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round without being DQ'ed in a modern prizefight, just for instance.

There is truth in that but I cant help but be the sum of my parts. I try to be as objective as I can but also believe the reverse is true. Some believe boxing started in 1990 and anyone that came before that couldn't compete which is ridiculous and I wont go into that here. And the fact remains that some of these earlier guys were as good as people say they were.

It would be interesting to gather a top 15 Saddo atg list based on voting by the members in every weight class.

Hey for sure, and boxing is a lot different than most sports in that we'll never know. I don't consider you an offender here by any means either. I'm just of the opinion that many, if not most people who have watched any sport for years tend to be less objective about the modern landscape of it, when it should be the other way around. It's a nostalgia thing as much as anything else imo.

No offence taken and true enough. We sit right alongside those who think Marquez landed a lucky punch.

[p4pking]

There's nothing lucky about that A side meth

[Britkid]

Great fighter, so good in fact, he sneaks into the top 20 of 'all time' IMO.

[Jerry Rice]

Great fighter, so good in fact, he sneaks into the top 20 of 'all time' IMO.

This

[jehoshaphat]

Pernell was a special talent. I find it insulting when people say old school guys would have beaten him, or Duran would have KO'd him. Whitaker was about as good as it gets at the sweet science. He'd have those idiots swinging and hitting air.

I don't know why people underrate Pernell so badly. How someone can only have Pernell in their top 20 is absolutely insane. Especially to rank guys over him who we've never seen fight, who all we know about is from press clippings. Sheesh.

To me, it's always like the science vs religion argument. You guys can believe the fantasy tales about guys from 100 years ago being complete world beaters who would chase our modern greats out of the ring. Worship and that church, be my guest.

Me? I'm going to believe in the greatness I can see.

Absolutely on point! Pernell as great as he was is somehow underrated. How I still can't figure it out. Dude in his prime was pretty much not hittable while still in the pocket. I don't see anyone matching up well with Pernell. Who sees Pernell's style and said this guy (Insert name) matches up well with him? I am not trying to start an argument but I am seriously interested in seeing something I may be missing. SRL at 147 is the only guy I can see possibly beating Sweet Pea and only at 147 or 154.

[FinitoElDinamita]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

[Jerry Rice]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

You're joking right finito ?

[FinitoElDinamita]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

You're joking right finito ?

Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..

Arguello:

- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along

- Royal Kobayashi

- Rafael Limon

- Bobby Chacon

- Ruben Castillo

- Jose Luis Ramirez

- Ray Mancini

Whitaker:

- Greg Haugen

- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him

- Azuma Nelson

- Jorge Paez

- Rafael Pineda

- Buddy Mcgirt


Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..

I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..

- Arguello

- Barrera

- Whitaker

[jehoshaphat]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

You're joking right finito ?

Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..

Arguello:

- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along

- Royal Kobayashi

- Rafael Limon

- Bobby Chacon

- Ruben Castillo

- Jose Luis Ramirez

- Ray Mancini

Whitaker:

- Greg Haugen

- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him

- Azuma Nelson

- Jorge Paez

- Rafael Pineda

- Buddy Mcgirt


Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..

I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..

- Arguello

- Barrera

- Whitaker

Who/what all did Sweet Pea miss that makes you call him an underachiever? By the way, don't forget to add these to his accomplishments...1 on all p4p lists, 4 weight division champ, lightweight champ through junior middleweight champ in 4 years, beat 154 pound champion Vasquez(who had recently beaten and knocked down like 5 times the undefeated Winky Wright), he beat Buddy McGirt twice not once, he actually beat Ramirez twice(got robbed first time)and beat Chavez amongst other names like black mamba, Hurtado 2X, and Rivera. I'm sure we don't have to debate the Chavez Sr. decision debacle here. The DLH fight was close enough to not call a robbery although I had PW winning that fight at a point of his career where he was on his way out. Remember DLH wanted nothing with a rematch. Sweet Pea took out a page in USA today calling for the rematch and even went public offering to take short money. I don't see how you rate Arguello and Barerra with Sweet Pea. Neither of those guys were ever considered the best guy in boxing and you can't just count victories. Both of those guys were clearly beat several times in their primes...amongst those losses were stoppages. Remember 5'5" or 5'6" Whitaker and Barerra are like the same height yet could you really see Barerra winning a title(a legitimate one at that) at 154 or even 147 for that matter. Those guys aren't in the same league as Sweet Pea let alone place them ahead of him. Heck, the taller Arguello didn't even do that. Maybe this was a joke or you're just drinking and feeling riled up.

[Master]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

You're joking right finito ?

Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..

Arguello:

- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along

- Royal Kobayashi

- Rafael Limon

- Bobby Chacon

- Ruben Castillo

- Jose Luis Ramirez

- Ray Mancini

Whitaker:

- Greg Haugen

- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him

- Azuma Nelson

- Jorge Paez

- Rafael Pineda

- Buddy Mcgirt


Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..

I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..

- Arguello

- Barrera

- Whitaker

Who/what all did Sweet Pea miss that makes you call him an underachiever? By the way, don't forget to add these to his accomplishments...1 on all p4p lists, 4 weight division champ, lightweight champ through junior middleweight champ in 4 years, beat 154 pound champion Vasquez(who had recently beaten and knocked down like 5 times the undefeated Winky Wright), he beat Buddy McGirt twice not once, he actually beat Ramirez twice(got robbed first time)and beat Chavez amongst other names like black mamba, Hurtado 2X, and Rivera. I'm sure we don't have to debate the Chavez Sr. decision debacle here. The DLH fight was close enough to not call a robbery although I had PW winning that fight at a point of his career where he was on his way out. Remember DLH wanted nothing with a rematch. Sweet Pea took out a page in USA today calling for the rematch and even went public offering to take short money. I don't see how you rate Arguello and Barerra with Sweet Pea. Neither of those guys were ever considered the best guy in boxing and you can't just count victories. Both of those guys were clearly beat several times in their primes...amongst those losses were stoppages. Remember 5'5" or 5'6" Whitaker and Barerra are like the same height yet could you really see Barerra winning a title(a legitimate one at that) at 154 or even 147 for that matter. Those guys aren't in the same league as Sweet Pea let alone place them ahead of him. Heck, the taller Arguello didn't even do that. Maybe this was a joke or you're just drinking and feeling riled up.

Poster is right beating the champ at 154lb cements his greatness.

[Manju]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

You're joking right finito ?

Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..

Arguello:

- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along

- Royal Kobayashi

- Rafael Limon

- Bobby Chacon

- Ruben Castillo

- Jose Luis Ramirez

- Ray Mancini

Whitaker:

- Greg Haugen

- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him

- Azuma Nelson

- Jorge Paez

- Rafael Pineda

- Buddy Mcgirt


Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..

I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..

- Arguello

- Barrera

- Whitaker

The flaw in this argument is that you're treating boxing's subjective and often corrupt scoring as the final judge. Pernell was 1-1 against Ramirez only because the judges where watching a different first fight. With the wisdom of time on our side, we should able to reward him a 2-0.

More importantly, you can add to that a 1-0 against Julia Cesar Chavez, who didn't want anything to do with him after being subjected to a clinic. Whitaker dismantled a fellow HOFer in his prime.

One may also consider that an aging Whitaker fought a prime ODLH to that point that a decision going his way would have been reasonable.

I don't see any reason to respect the scorecards when they don't reflect reality.

[BIG H]

Top 20 p4p all time for sure in my book.

[jon09]

All time rankings below top 5 are too subjective so I'd rather not touch it but I would place him near Alexis Arguello.

You're joking right finito ?

Dead serious bruh. Talent level and actual accomplishments are different and I believe Arguello did more in this sport. Let's take a look at their notable victories and let me know if I left out any names.. straight off my head..

Arguello:

- Ruben Olivares.... regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter until Chavez came along

- Royal Kobayashi

- Rafael Limon

- Bobby Chacon

- Ruben Castillo

- Jose Luis Ramirez

- Ray Mancini

Whitaker:

- Greg Haugen

- Jose Luis ramirez... 1-1 against him

- Azuma Nelson

- Jorge Paez

- Rafael Pineda

- Buddy Mcgirt


Based on Arguello's longevity and more victories over higher level oppositions, I place him about two notches above Whitaker.. Whitaker imo is an underachiver. He had the talent to accomplish so much more but his drug habit hindered him from reaching full potential..

I would put Barrera near these two guys as well.. in this order..

- Arguello

- Barrera

- Whitaker

Who/what all did Sweet Pea miss that makes you call him an underachiever? By the way, don't forget to add these to his accomplishments...1 on all p4p lists, 4 weight division champ, lightweight champ through junior middleweight champ in 4 years, beat 154 pound champion Vasquez(who had recently beaten and knocked down like 5 times the undefeated Winky Wright), he beat Buddy McGirt twice not once, he actually beat Ramirez twice(got robbed first time)and beat Chavez amongst other names like black mamba, Hurtado 2X, and Rivera. I'm sure we don't have to debate the Chavez Sr. decision debacle here. The DLH fight was close enough to not call a robbery although I had PW winning that fight at a point of his career where he was on his way out. Remember DLH wanted nothing with a rematch. Sweet Pea took out a page in USA today calling for the rematch and even went public offering to take short money. I don't see how you rate Arguello and Barerra with Sweet Pea. Neither of those guys were ever considered the best guy in boxing and you can't just count victories. Both of those guys were clearly beat several times in their primes...amongst those losses were stoppages. Remember 5'5" or 5'6" Whitaker and Barerra are like the same height yet could you really see Barerra winning a title(a legitimate one at that) at 154 or even 147 for that matter. Those guys aren't in the same league as Sweet Pea let alone place them ahead of him. Heck, the taller Arguello didn't even do that. Maybe this was a joke or you're just drinking and feeling riled up.

Poster is right beating the champ at 154lb cements his greatness.

I said the same thing in an earlier post. Vasquez is 1 of his most underrated wins but to me it really put a stamp on his achievements.