Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

[Master]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.

Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.

Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.

Shame on you for posting such a thing. I will not go into Oscar who had the bottle to take on all comers and Tito who had brutal power at 2 weights but Jones was the man and even you know that Benn, Eubank, Dariusz and others did not stand a chance.

Any pro fighter has a chance. I was sure G-Man would destroy Benn. I was certain that Tyson was going to chew Douglas up and spit him out. I had no doubt that Leonard would leave the ring on a stretcher after fighting Hagler ( thought he lost that one, but was still shocked to see him last the distance). Roy was a phenom and on his best night I think he is even money with anyone in history. Still have to prove it in the ring...

You could say the same with most fighters in history that they did not fight particular fighters.

[mikeeod]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.

Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.

Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.

Shame on you for posting such a thing. I will not go into Oscar who had the bottle to take on all comers and Tito who had brutal power at 2 weights but Jones was the man and even you know that Benn, Eubank, Dariusz and others did not stand a chance.

Any pro fighter has a chance. I was sure G-Man would destroy Benn. I was certain that Tyson was going to chew Douglas up and spit him out. I had no doubt that Leonard would leave the ring on a stretcher after fighting Hagler ( thought he lost that one, but was still shocked to see him last the distance). Roy was a phenom and on his best night I think he is even money with anyone in history. Still have to prove it in the ring...

You could say the same with most fighters in history that they did not fight particular fighters.

Not NEARLY as many as Roy. Not even close. U can say Oscar avoided Winky n Vernon, maybe Tszyu. He fought Quartey, Whitaker, Tito, Mosley, Hop, Vargas and Chavez. Whoever says Floyd sucked anyone is an idiot. U can say Leonard never fought Pryor. Leonard fought Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler.

Roy didn't fight Benn, Eubank, Collins, Liles, Darius, G-Man, Julian Jackson, Graciano and/or Nunn. The only prime P4P great fighter Roy beat was Toney.

[Master]

Oscar lost big fights.

Floyd ducked Manny.

Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.

[imp]

They said a tall dangerous fighter like corrales would beat floyd at the time...but guess what happened?

Duran over floyd?..come on!?

[Master]

They said a tall dangerous fighter like corrales would beat floyd at the time...but guess what happened?

Duran over floyd?..come on!?

At lightweight yes!

[mikeeod]

Oscar lost big fights.

Floyd ducked Manny.

Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.

Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.

[imp]

Oscar lost big fights.

Floyd ducked Manny.

Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.

Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.

Collins ducked calzaghe..

All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.

[Master]

Oscar lost big fights.

Floyd ducked Manny.

Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.

Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.

Collins ducked calzaghe..

All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.

Dariuz should have come to Roy if he wanted the fight instead of losing to some one Roy had beat. Benn was finished after the G Man fight and cashed in on some easy defences before losing the title to someone who Roy had beat.

Collins is not even worth discussing.

[east end bob]

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

This is a sensible view. Both are great fighters. Floyd's style for me is dull whereas Manny is exciting. I would stay up all night to watch Manny but not Floyd. Having said that, Floyd is bigger, much bigger, in boxing at the highest level that is a crucial factor. I know there are many examples that may be quoted to disprove this but the fact remains that "GOOD BIG'UN WILL BEAT A GOOD LITTL'UN! most times. Manny therefore has a problem But I would love him to prove me wrong.

[mikeeod]

Oscar lost big fights.

Floyd ducked Manny.

Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.

Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.

Collins ducked calzaghe..

All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.

Dariuz should have come to Roy if he wanted the fight instead of losing to some one Roy had beat. Benn was finished after the G Man fight and cashed in on some easy defences before losing the title to someone who Roy had beat.

Collins is not even worth discussing.

Huh. So you're saying that Collins was so bad that he shouldn't even be mentioned as a possible opponent for Roy, but Vinny Paz, Tony Thornton and Antoine Byrd were?!? Roy fought Vinny Paz. Former lightweight title holder. The guy who was humiliated by Hector Camacho. You're telling me Steve Collins wasn't worthy but Paz was?!? You can't even say that with a straight face. When guys try to say Floyd ducked everyone, I disagree and don't take it seriously. When they say Roy ducked people, I agree wholeheartedly. Roy missed too many big fights vs real competition during his prime. Once he lost his abilities he then tried to fight the best to stay relevant but it was too late.

[Master]

Oscar lost big fights.

Floyd ducked Manny.

Roy did not duck those fighters they ducked him.

Roy was supposedly, according to Roy, very good friends with G-Man. After Benn ended his career, how could he find a reason to NOT fight him? Steve Collins called Roy out repeatedly after beating Eubank and Benn. Doubt Collins was ducking Roy. Darius called Roy out constantly. Roy was the name at that weight and a win over him makes any of those guys a superstar.
NO ONE was ducking Roy. It's why they called him Reluctant Roy and created the Roycott.

Collins ducked calzaghe..

All this ducking talk seems to suit every individual boxing fans needs.

Dariuz should have come to Roy if he wanted the fight instead of losing to some one Roy had beat. Benn was finished after the G Man fight and cashed in on some easy defences before losing the title to someone who Roy had beat.

Collins is not even worth discussing.

Huh. So you're saying that Collins was so bad that he shouldn't even be mentioned as a possible opponent for Roy, but Vinny Paz, Tony Thornton and Antoine Byrd were?!? Roy fought Vinny Paz. Former lightweight title holder. The guy who was humiliated by Hector Camacho. You're telling me Steve Collins wasn't worthy but Paz was?!? You can't even say that with a straight face. When guys try to say Floyd ducked everyone, I disagree and don't take it seriously. When they say Roy ducked people, I agree wholeheartedly. Roy missed too many big fights vs real competition during his prime. Once he lost his abilities he then tried to fight the best to stay relevant but it was too late.

Collins had just beaten a shopworn Eubanks and was cashing in the title after failing to beat anyone decent in the USA.

[imp]

I love roy but he should have fought the best of the uk..clinton woods fight was just a sparring session and clinton was in love with roy in that fight!!

Roy did beat tarver the first time though and people do forget that..

[mikeeod]

I love roy but he should have fought the best of the uk..clinton woods fight was just a sparring session and clinton was in love with roy in that fight!!

Roy did beat tarver the first time though and people do forget that..

I actually think the Tarver win was Roys most impressive. I felt Hop was green and Ruiz was limited. The Griffin win was visually impressive and a great win, but Roy showed a ton of guts in taking Tarver on knowing he had a tough style and then showed serious toughness in winning what was an extremely taxing fight. All of that being said, I can't believe he didn't fight Benn, Eubank, Collins, Darius, Graciano, Liles, G-Man, Julian Jackson and/or Michael Nunn. Craziest thing is that people still try and say Roy never ducked anyone.

[Beanflicker]

That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.

I find it strange the criteria changes so often in front of my face, like I'm the mark in a three card monte game.

I'll say "well Floyd has gone 18 years undefeated", people will say "well he ducked this guy, fought this guy at a different weight, this guy was no good... to summarize, his opponents were shitty."

I'll ask, "well why was Hank Armstrong so much better than Floyd", people will say "oh well he beat 20 guys in a month." (or whatever the fuck he did).

I'll say "well, were his opponents any good? I thought it was quality, not quantity, that mattered", people say "yeah, they were good."

I'll say "well, a lot of them had losing records or were very inexperienced", people say "yeah but there's no way Floyd could beat 20 guys in a month."

I'll say this too: I like how, when speaking of these guys, we bring up all the positives they did, but nobody ever brings up the shortcomings.

Take Duran: I'm supposed to believe that Duran was the superior fighter to Floyd. Duran went from lightweight to super middleweight and won a bunch of titles. Cool. Good for him. He also quit in the middle of a world championship fight because he had a stomach cramp. He also dropped decisions to several unheralded fighters like Laing and Robbie Sims. He also, after beating SRL in the first fight, came up short against all his best peers. How come these blaring shortcomings aren't considered when evaluating him?

I've heard "well, Duran's run at lightweight makes him the greatest alone"... yet how many people could name a guy he beat at LW other than Dejesus and Buchanan?

[SlimTrae]

That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.

I find it strange the criteria changes so often in front of my face, like I'm the mark in a three card monte game.

I'll say "well Floyd has gone 18 years undefeated", people will say "well he ducked this guy, fought this guy at a different weight, this guy was no good... to summarize, his opponents were shitty."

I'll ask, "well why was Hank Armstrong so much better than Floyd", people will say "oh well he beat 20 guys in a month." (or whatever the fuck he did).

I'll say "well, were his opponents any good? I thought it was quality, not quantity, that mattered", people say "yeah, they were good."

I'll say "well, a lot of them had losing records or were very inexperienced", people say "yeah but there's no way Floyd could beat 20 guys in a month."

I'll say this too: I like how, when speaking of these guys, we bring up all the positives they did, but nobody ever brings up the shortcomings.

Take Duran: I'm supposed to believe that Duran was the superior fighter to Floyd. Duran went from lightweight to super middleweight and won a bunch of titles. Cool. Good for him. He also quit in the middle of a world championship fight because he had a stomach cramp. He also dropped decisions to several unheralded fighters like Laing and Robbie Sims. He also, after beating SRL in the first fight, came up short against all his best peers. How come these blaring shortcomings aren't considered when evaluating him?

I've heard "well, Duran's run at lightweight makes him the greatest alone"... yet how many people could name a guy he beat at LW other than Dejesus and Buchanan?

I adore the 70s fighters- but I can play devils advocate.

That's why I questioned Ali's comp as well as SRL:Frazier,Norton,Forman for example. The dragon they slayed was Ali? excluding Forman who beat the guys who beat Ali:convincingly. And Ali never slayed Frazier or Norton let alone beat them convincingly...more like he beat them off of him...barely.

Same with SRL:Hearns, Haglar, Duran.

Yet defenders of Ray never say he (ducked) Pryor. Or why he chose Duran (who turned pro in 68!) for 1st title defense.

Hearns slayed what dragon? 27-6 Cuevas? a 16yr vet in Duran? Barkley whooped his ass everytime.

What slick boxers compare to PBF that those guys fight?

In 10 years or so, Floyd's generation of fans will hollar the same stuff. The champ in the year 2025 will not be on par with that old legend named Floyd Mayweather jr.

It'll be some receded bald head ass old fart of a fan who will say... please this whooper-snapper couldn't handle the fighters back in my day... Mayweather fought Cotto, Canelo, Maidana ..yada yada...