"Ali hate"..... what's the point??

[Master]

When you are young you are very ideological but when you get older you mature. It happens to us all, even Bill.

[Beanflicker]

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

[Master]

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

Ali went against the system before the vietnam war, he changed his name, he joined the nation of Islam that is enough protest against the establishment than you can get.

[Bill Paxtom]

When you are young you are very ideological but when you get older you mature. It happens to us all, even Bill.

Cassius Clay wasn't 'ideological'.

He was a 'clown' that was well known. Yes he could box too.
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"It's easy to become well known. All you have to do is become an 'Asshole'."

Sheree North

[Master]

Ideological, clown and immature all the same thing.

[brocktonblockbust]

If he was a true Muslim as he acted like he was {we already know he wasnt because as I stated he was a follower of the militant, racial version of Islam} he NEVER would have hurt so many peoples' feelings like Joe Frazier's for example. Never, never, never. He wanted to talk about/feign spirituality but his disgusting behavior towards Joe and several others of his own race WERE ANYTHING BUT holy, religious, spiritual, enlightened.

[TitoFan]

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

Ali went against the system before the vietnam war, he changed his name, he joined the nation of Islam that is enough protest against the establishment than you can get.

You're absolutely right, Master. But I'll go one further.

To me it matters not whether he was an activist against the Vietnam war before he was drafted or not. Or whether he used his platform as a way of protesting or not. What matters is that he very clearly pointed out his thoughts about going over to 'Nam to fight for a society that treated him and every black like a 2nd class citizen.

One can never be sure how one would act under similar circumstances, but I'll say this: If I'd been draft eligible in the '60s and been born black..... I'd probably have had the same exact thoughts Ali expressed out loud while others didn't.

[Beanflicker]

To me it matters not whether he was an activist against the Vietnam war before he was drafted or not. Or whether he used his platform as a way of protesting or not.

Well that's fine if it doesn't matter to you, but when discussing someone's actions and debating whether or not they constitute "heroic", you need to look at whether they were acting altruistically or egoistically.

Christopher Reeve donations to fund spinal cord and paralysis research went up considerably after he himself was paralysed. Do you look at him as a hero for donating so much of his time and resources to the cause? Or do you feel that his generosity was predictable, given his new vested interest in finding a cure for paralysis?

We can all have our definition of hero, but I would suggest than when a man refuses to stand up for a cause and help others until he himself becomes a victim and NEEDS to stand up for the cause... he is not heroic, but merely acting in a predictable way to protect his own self interest.

I think there's enough good about Ali where we don't have to twist shit around and try to give him credit for things he never did. He was the greatest HW of all time, he overcame a ton of adversity in the ring and proved he had a true warrior's heart. He was a great personality, he was smart, and he inspired millions around the world. But he could also be an asshole just like anyone else. He demonstrated very clearly that he could be a tremendous asshole.

[Master]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

[Beanflicker]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

Of course I read it. You'll notice I even quoted a portion of it.

Did you read what I wrote? My point is that it takes balls to selflessly stand up for a cause, even though you are not a victim of the cause. When you are standing up for a cause because you are the victim and it benefits you to support the cause... that's self preservation.

He dodged the draft and had to come up with a reason to save face.

I don't think he was a coward, but it seems like you guys feel that one is either a coward or a hero. There's a lot of middle ground in between there and that's where Ali lands IMO in terms of this particular topic.

[TitoFan]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

Yeah Bean. That's pretty much my point. I'm not pushing the hero agenda, but I bristle when people that weren't even around during those times, nor had the same experiences in life that he did.... are quick to label him a coward..... or even suggest they know why he refused to be drafted. Like I've said before.... there are haters and there are HATERS. I know you can debate your point rationally because you're not a HATER the way I view them, which is they block out any rational counter arguments because it does not fuel their irrational hate.

[Beanflicker]

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

[brocktonblockbust]

Muhammad Ali was electrifying for not only Boxing, but for Society.............it was tumultuous times, things were changing fast, society was getting ripped in different directions, people were protesting, .....

old timers like Marciano and Joe Louis didnt like him much, guys like Liston hated Ali's big mouth bragging

There was this sudden rush of innovation then: Jimi Hendrix, Muhammad Ali, MLK, NOI, Black Panthers

He was a part of all that, his good looks and charisma and athleticism, his audacity..........

..............amazing times.

I rank Ali about #3 ATG Heavy after Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis...........

But he really hurt people along the way, good and decent people like Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, and insulted hurtfully some really respected guys like Archie Moore, and good guys like Ernie Terrell, etc.

It was much more than selling tickets, it was cruel. DOESNT MIX WITH HIS SUPPOSED SPIRITUALITY

[TitoFan]

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

I don't think we're on opposite sides here. I've never considered him to be a hero for anything regarding his decision to dodge the draft. I do think, however, that it took guts for standing up to the establishment in that way, especially considering how much he stood to lose. It would've been easier for him to just go along with it, especially knowing (like HATER Bill said) that he wasn't going to be put in the front lines or anything like that.

But forget all that, for a moment. Think about the focus his actions put on the racial issues in America during those times. Think about all those blacks that said "Damn... he's right. Why should we go fight the Vietcong? They never called us niggers." Think about the whites that must've thought "Hmm.... maybe he's got a point there. We're asking them to put their lives on the line, but here in America we treat them like shit."

Bottom line is... many of us are glad he made the decision he made. And it cost him, too. Three prime years of his professional career. Think how much more he could've added to his professional legacy.

[Bill Paxtom]

Lt. Col. Peter Dewey

The 1st American Soldier to die {shot and killed} in Vietnam.

I wonder how many of the Viet Cong called him 'a nigger'.