If Calzaghe's record is so bad, whose is better?

[Kev]

I noticed a few are saying Pavlik and Cotto etc... have taken risks at a younger age and Calzaghe didn't. Thing is, i don't see why it matters. If you take a risk, you take a risk. At the end of the day Calzaghe wiped the floor with the guys he supposedly took a risk with (well except Hopkins), whereas Pavlik and Cotto didn't.

He's always going to have his haters and i must admit i'm not a big fan, but his record is second to none. Same with Mayweather though. Great record, but folk would rather talk about the guys he didn't face.

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

What four acomplished fighters in their prime has Cotto beat?

Certainly not Judah (he hasn't one a big fight in about 4 years) , certainly not Mosely (people on here saying he should retire after the Mayorga debacle) , maybe Margarito but he got battered by Margarito.

I guess you mean Quintana and Malignaggi?

Dangerous fighters indeed

I'm not criticising Cotto here, I think he's a fantastic fighter but he hasn't faced 4 elite prime fighters like you suggest.

And Eubank was a million miles away from being a British 'club fighter', even weight drained he'd have beaten Jermain Taylor that's for sure.

And regarding Floyd why does it really matter that he never fought a prime welterwight, as he was never a welterweight anyway.

That's like criticising Roy Jones for never fighting a genuine heavyweight champ.

Mayweather is a star for winning world titles in 5 weight classes, not just welterweight.

I'd have loved to see him fight Cotto and Margarito too but to suggest his legacy isn't very good because he didn't is just stupid. No fighter in the last 15 years has a better resume than Floyd Mayweather.

[hfahrenheit]

[quote=leftylee;623837][quote=Bilbo;623835]

...No shame in losing to Margarito.

No shame, yes, but definitely humbled in the way he lost- he gave Margarito everything he had and was brutally stopped.

[Taeth]

Its true...

Everyone raves about tyson also, how lenox's biggest win came against mike tyson...lol...but WHO THE HELL IS MIKE TYSON?

If you wanna play this whole game...

Tysons record is a load of sh1t!

His biggest wins came against a way past it holmes and burbek, he got beat by douglas at his peak and lost to holyfield and lenox.

So lenox biggest win came against the guy who beat a past it holmes and burbeck?

Hahaha, it totally cracks me up.

Roy jones fought a load of fukin bums as well, his biggest wins against one of the sh1ttest heavyweight champs of all time ruiz, james toney and a close one with hopkins. WOW!!!! WHAT AN AMAZING RECORD HEY NOT!!!

Why is it that calzaghe gets crticism for his record, but jones also has equally as sh1t record, tyson has a PATHETIC record compared with both of them, yet tyson is an all time great?

Theres so much favouritism and biasness its ridiculous.

By the way, why didnt roy jones move upto heavyweight and fight lennox?

Womder if hed have been able to ko lennox with one hand behind his back like he did with that other class c bum that he fought in the ring.

First of all Ruiz would have DESTROYED Calzaghe. Second, Calzaghe wouldn't fight Jones in america unless he got a 50-50 cut. Why would he deserve that? He was scared to fight prime Roy because he knew he would have been demolished.

Also the close fight with Hopkins? Is that the one where Roy won by 4 or 5 rounds with a broken right hand? As for shitty competition what about Mike McCallum, Reggie Johnson, Virgill Hill, Eric Harding, Montell Griffin, Jorge Castro, Mequi Sosa, Clinton Woods, Otis Grant, Julio Gonzalez, Antonio Tarver(he beat him one sidedly in the first fight and two judges agree with me 117-111, and 116-112) And its not the fact that these guys are good, but besides two fights(Eric Harding, Montell Griffin 1) Roy has dominated his fights more than I have seen anybody else dominate the same level of competition.

[Dark Lord Al]

I noticed a few are saying Pavlik and Cotto etc... have taken risks at a younger age and Calzaghe didn't. Thing is, i don't see why it matters. If you take a risk, you take a risk. At the end of the day Calzaghe wiped the floor with the guys he supposedly took a risk with (well except Hopkins), whereas Pavlik and Cotto didn't.

He's always going to have his haters and i must admit i'm not a big fan, but his record is second to none. Same with Mayweather though. Great record, but folk would rather talk about the guys he didn't face.

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

What four acomplished fighters in their prime has Cotto beat?

Certainly not Judah (he hasn't one a big fight in about 4 years) , certainly not Mosely (people on here saying he should retire after the Mayorga debacle) , maybe Margarito but he got battered by Margarito.

I guess you mean Quintana and Malignaggi?

Dangerous fighters indeed

I'm not criticising Cotto here, I think he's a fantastic fighter but he hasn't faced 4 elite prime fighters like you suggest.

Cotto has faced those fighters at the age of 26 , so he can come again ,
losing may just be a blip and he can come back stronger who knows.

[Rantcatrat]

I noticed a few are saying Pavlik and Cotto etc... have taken risks at a younger age and Calzaghe didn't. Thing is, i don't see why it matters. If you take a risk, you take a risk. At the end of the day Calzaghe wiped the floor with the guys he supposedly took a risk with (well except Hopkins), whereas Pavlik and Cotto didn't.

He's always going to have his haters and i must admit i'm not a big fan, but his record is second to none. Same with Mayweather though. Great record, but folk would rather talk about the guys he didn't face.

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

Name them?

Obviously, I was exagerating a bit with the point being that none of his fights between 1997 and 2004 were against prime, accomplished boxers.

Just for you though , per boxrec, after winning the WBO strap from Eubank in 1997, Calzaghe fought: Branco Sobot (finished his career with a 19-11 record and was destroyed by Danilo Haussler of recent dubious fame), David Sarie (didn't fight anyone of note after fighting Calzaghe, rarely left Britain, only twice, and lost to Sven Ottke and Andre Thysse when he did) Richard Woodhall (never left Britain, well once, and was beat by an American club fighter in Baltimore, Maryland, retired after the Calzaghe fight at age 32) Will McIntryre (american club fighter, a bit better then the rest), Charles Brewer (biggest name on this list, finished career at 40-11) Miguel Angel Jiminez (americannever fought anyone of note), Tocker Pudwill (??), Omar Sheika (average fighter, career ended at 27- etc. Best wins during that span were over Mario Veit and Robin Reid.

Edit: this post sounds like I am a Calzaghe hater, but that is far from the truth. He is a special talent. I am just showing the knocks on him from a legacy standpoint.

[Taeth]

I noticed a few are saying Pavlik and Cotto etc... have taken risks at a younger age and Calzaghe didn't. Thing is, i don't see why it matters. If you take a risk, you take a risk. At the end of the day Calzaghe wiped the floor with the guys he supposedly took a risk with (well except Hopkins), whereas Pavlik and Cotto didn't.

He's always going to have his haters and i must admit i'm not a big fan, but his record is second to none. Same with Mayweather though. Great record, but folk would rather talk about the guys he didn't face.

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

What four acomplished fighters in their prime has Cotto beat?

Certainly not Judah (he hasn't one a big fight in about 4 years) , certainly not Mosely (people on here saying he should retire after the Mayorga debacle) , maybe Margarito but he got battered by Margarito.

I guess you mean Quintana and Malignaggi?

Dangerous fighters indeed

I'm not criticising Cotto here, I think he's a fantastic fighter but he hasn't faced 4 elite prime fighters like you suggest.

And Eubank was a million miles away from being a British 'club fighter', even weight drained he'd have beaten Jermain Taylor that's for sure.

No way would have Eubanks beaten Taylor, thats bs. Taylor is twice the fighter the Eubanks that stepped into the ring against Calzaghe was. I think if Taylor fought how he did the second fight against Pavlik he would give Calzaghe a lot of troubles.

Also who has Calzaghe foughten who is in their prime? Mikke Kessler is the only really good fighter I can think of who he beat in his prime, and Kessler didn't even spar or do the heavybad for the last 2-3 weeks leading into the fight because of hand injuries.

[Rantcatrat]

I noticed a few are saying Pavlik and Cotto etc... have taken risks at a younger age and Calzaghe didn't. Thing is, i don't see why it matters. If you take a risk, you take a risk. At the end of the day Calzaghe wiped the floor with the guys he supposedly took a risk with (well except Hopkins), whereas Pavlik and Cotto didn't.

He's always going to have his haters and i must admit i'm not a big fan, but his record is second to none. Same with Mayweather though. Great record, but folk would rather talk about the guys he didn't face.

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

What four acomplished fighters in their prime has Cotto beat?

Certainly not Judah (he hasn't one a big fight in about 4 years) , certainly not Mosely (people on here saying he should retire after the Mayorga debacle) , maybe Margarito but he got battered by Margarito.

I guess you mean Quintana and Malignaggi?

Dangerous fighters indeed

I'm not criticising Cotto here, I think he's a fantastic fighter but he hasn't faced 4 elite prime fighters like you suggest.

And Eubank was a million miles away from being a British 'club fighter', even weight drained he'd have beaten Jermain Taylor that's for sure.

Semantics mi amigo. Point being they are legitimate challenges. At 26, Cotto has already faced very qualified opposition.

Shane Mosley is an ATG, first ballot hall-of-famer. Agreed, he wasn't in his prime when he faced Cotto, but Cotto outboxed him, and Shane hadn't slowed down too much in that fight.

Zab Judah. Has Notable wins on his record. Fought PBF very well. Big time name. etc. Cotto demolished him.

Paulie, as of now is a junior middleweight champion. He holds a strap. His only loss being against Cotto. Dangerous, err, NO. Of course not, it is well documented know Paulie is feather fisted, but a worthy opponent in his prime, yes.

Carlos Quintana. The least accomplished of the above mentioned, but a good boxer, and the only boxer in the world who has beat Paul Williams.

Antonio Margarito. Dodged by PBF and Sugar Shane. Accomplished resume and in his prime.

Again, Cotto is 26.

I'm not taking away PBF's greatness. He was great. Unbelievable. Arguably the best of the last decade. I was only discusshing his record in the context of his welterweight legacy. I am NOT disparaging his record in any other way. Don't get me wrong.

[BIG H]

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

What four acomplished fighters in their prime has Cotto beat?

Certainly not Judah (he hasn't one a big fight in about 4 years) , certainly not Mosely (people on here saying he should retire after the Mayorga debacle) , maybe Margarito but he got battered by Margarito.

I guess you mean Quintana and Malignaggi?

Dangerous fighters indeed

I'm not criticising Cotto here, I think he's a fantastic fighter but he hasn't faced 4 elite prime fighters like you suggest.

And Eubank was a million miles away from being a British 'club fighter', even weight drained he'd have beaten Jermain Taylor that's for sure.

No way would have Eubanks beaten Taylor, thats bs. Taylor is twice the fighter the Eubanks that stepped into the ring against Calzaghe was.

In all seriousness I thought that Eubank's performance against Calzaghe was one of his best performances

[Fenster]

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

Name them?

Obviously, I was exagerating a bit with the point being that none of his fights between 1997 and 2004 were against prime, accomplished boxers.

Just for you though , per boxrec, after winning the WBO strap from Eubank in 1997, Calzaghe fought: Branco Sobot (finished his career with a 19-11 record and was destroyed by Danilo Haussler of recent dubious fame), David Sarie (didn't fight anyone of note after fighting Calzaghe, rarely left Britain, only twice, and lost to Sven Ottke and Andre Thysse when he did) Richard Woodhall (never left Britain, well once, and was beat by an American club fighter in Baltimore, Maryland, retired after the Calzaghe fight at age 32) Will McIntryre (american club fighter, a bit better then the rest), Charles Brewer (biggest name on this list, finished career at 40-11) Miguel Angel Jiminez (americannever fought anyone of note), Tocker Pudwill (??), Omar Sheika (average fighter, career ended at 27- etc. Best wins during that span were over Mario Veit and Robin Reid.

Blimey! So now you're calling Keith Holmes a "clubfighter?" For what it's worth - he was the WBC champion.

Sven Ottke was "no one of note?"

"Will McIntryre a bit better then the rest?"

No disrepect mate.. but you CLEARLY have NO IDEA about that time period. That was a SHOCKING interpretation of boxrec records.

Shocking.

[Fenster]

It matters and it is relevant because it reflects the quality of their legacy. A fighter's standing in history depends largely on who they beat. Just the fact that people are comparing Calzaghe's record, at age 37, to records of fighters who are 10 years younger should be indicative enough. Cotto has already fought at least 4 accomplished fighters in their prime. Pavlik took a risk fighting Hopkins, and Jermain Taylor for that matter, whereas when Calzaghe was at that age he was content to fight British clubfighters. Whether taking the risk was justified is another story (ask Pavlik or Cotto). Moreover, Calzaghe only "wiped the floor" with one prime accomplished fighter, Kessler. Pavlik and Cotto can already make that claim, at age 26.

And you are dead-on about PBF. Good comparison. PBF was an amazing pound for pound fighter, but when he left the game he had never fought any accomplished prime welterweight. He left the game when Sugar Shane, Miguel Cotto, and Antonio Margarito were all in their primes. It will always be a knock on PBF.

Name them?

You just made his point. The fact that most people can't name the bums Calzaghe fought for the majority of his career...is perfectly indicative of his resume,

No it's not.

It means you're either too YOUNG to remember the time period.

or

Too ignorant to recognise class fighters exist OUTSIDE of the USA.

[Rantcatrat]

Name them?

Obviously, I was exagerating a bit with the point being that none of his fights between 1997 and 2004 were against prime, accomplished boxers.

Just for you though , per boxrec, after winning the WBO strap from Eubank in 1997, Calzaghe fought: Branco Sobot (finished his career with a 19-11 record and was destroyed by Danilo Haussler of recent dubious fame), David Sarie (didn't fight anyone of note after fighting Calzaghe, rarely left Britain, only twice, and lost to Sven Ottke and Andre Thysse when he did) Richard Woodhall (never left Britain, well once, and was beat by an American club fighter in Baltimore, Maryland, retired after the Calzaghe fight at age 32) Will McIntryre (american club fighter, a bit better then the rest), Charles Brewer (biggest name on this list, finished career at 40-11) Miguel Angel Jiminez (americannever fought anyone of note), Tocker Pudwill (??), Omar Sheika (average fighter, career ended at 27- etc. Best wins during that span were over Mario Veit and Robin Reid.

Blimey! So now you're calling Keith Holmes a "clubfighter?" For what it's worth - he was the WBC champion.

Sven Ottke was "no one of note?"

"Will McIntryre a bit better then the rest?"

No disrepect mate.. but you CLEARLY have NO IDEA about that time period. That was a SHOCKING interpretation of boxrec records.

Shocking.

I misspoke on the McIntrye call. I edited that in, in the wrong place, see the Eubank and Reid comment at the bottom of my post.

I didn't mention Keith Holmes.

Sven Ottke, Robin Reid, and Eubank due to merit some praise. But, this is over a 7, repeat 7 year period. It may have been because of the lackluster competition in his division, but I mean come on, does that list impress you?

School me then. Explain to me, in the context of his wins over accomplished, prime, legitimate challenges, why that list merits praise?

[Rantcatrat]

Name them?

You just made his point. The fact that most people can't name the bums Calzaghe fought for the majority of his career...is perfectly indicative of his resume,

No it's not.

It means you're either too YOUNG to remember the time period.

or

Too ignorant to recognise class fighters exist OUTSIDE of the USA.

Probably a worthy topic for a post: stateside bias v. european bias?

[leftylee]

[quote=hfahrenheit;624576][quote=leftylee;623837]

No shame, yes, but definitely humbled in the way he lost- he gave Margarito everything he had and was brutally stopped.

You make it seem he was totally out of his depth. He completely dominated the first half of the fight.

And if your going by Cotto's facial injuries by any chance to believe he was "Brutally stopped" does that mean Paul Malignaggi was brutally beaten because did you see his face after Cotto ?

It was hardly brutal.

[Fenster]

Obviously, I was exagerating a bit with the point being that none of his fights between 1997 and 2004 were against prime, accomplished boxers.

Just for you though , per boxrec, after winning the WBO strap from Eubank in 1997, Calzaghe fought: Branco Sobot (finished his career with a 19-11 record and was destroyed by Danilo Haussler of recent dubious fame), David Sarie (didn't fight anyone of note after fighting Calzaghe, rarely left Britain, only twice, and lost to Sven Ottke and Andre Thysse when he did) Richard Woodhall (never left Britain, well once, and was beat by an American club fighter in Baltimore, Maryland, retired after the Calzaghe fight at age 32) Will McIntryre (american club fighter, a bit better then the rest), Charles Brewer (biggest name on this list, finished career at 40-11) Miguel Angel Jiminez (americannever fought anyone of note), Tocker Pudwill (??), Omar Sheika (average fighter, career ended at 27- etc. Best wins during that span were over Mario Veit and Robin Reid.

Blimey! So now you're calling Keith Holmes a "clubfighter?" For what it's worth - he was the WBC champion.

Sven Ottke was "no one of note?"

"Will McIntryre a bit better then the rest?"

No disrepect mate.. but you CLEARLY have NO IDEA about that time period. That was a SHOCKING interpretation of boxrec records.

Shocking.

I misspoke on the McIntrye call. I edited that in, in the wrong place, see the Eubank and Reid comment at the bottom of my post.

I didn't mention Keith Holmes.

Sven Ottke, Robin Reid, and Eubank due to merit some praise. But, this is over a 7, repeat 7 year period. It may have been because of the lackluster competition in his division, but I mean come on, does that list impress you?

School me then. Explain to me, in the context of his wins over accomplished, prime, legitimate challenges, why that list merits praise?

You said Richie(ard) Woodall lost to a clubfighter. That clubfighter is Keith Holmes.

Calzaghe never fought Sven Ottke.

School you? I've never claimed Calzaghe beat great fighters through that time period.

Look mate, i'm sure you know plenty about boxing, but you don't KNOW this time period. That is CLEAR.

If you had originally said "Calzaghe fought bums" instead of "British bums" i wouldn't have even questioned you. I wanted to know who the "british bums" were.

Calzaghe is clearly NEW to you. So i understand you would think his opposition is below par.

[Rantcatrat]

[quote=leftylee;624627][quote=hfahrenheit;624576]

You make it seem he was totally out of his depth. He completely dominated the first half of the fight.

And if your going by Cotto's facial injuries by any chance to believe he was "Brutally stopped" does that mean Paul Malignaggi was brutally beaten because did you see his face after Cotto ?

It was hardly brutal.

Personally, I'd be going by the fact he was willed into submission. Cotto took three knees. I think, may be wrong, but he even told his corner he didn't want to fight any longer. Paulie lasted the whole twelve rounds and judges had him winning a handful too. Of course, he was solidly dominated by Cotto.