Carl Froch Is Not That Good.

[Kev]

I don't mean to imply that he's as tough as Ward or that he fights in the style. Ward was a a guy who could be losing almost every round, then bang, land his punch and either turn the fight around or win it with a KO.

But now that I think about it, Ward destroyed guys even in losses or close wins. Several fights were never the same after enduring Wards body shots. Froch isn't that punishing.

So now Froch isn't even as good as Mickey Ward?

How many world titles did Ward win again? How many former undisputed world champs and p4p stars did he beat?

Dude, you are so touchy. I didn't say Froch wasn't as good as Ward, I said he's not as punishing. And he's not. And as far has saying that Froch is closer to Ward than Calzaghe, let me break it down simply. Lets say the Joe Calzaghe gets an A+ grade as a fighter. Micky Ward gets a B grade as a fighter. Froch is a B+, not an A-. Kessler is an A-. There's a bigger gap between guys like Roy Jones, Calzaghe, James Toney, and Floyd Mayweather and Froch than there is between Froch and Ward.

Ward was one of the TOUGHEST fighters ever. Also, he had a style and a skillset that inflicted career changing punishment. Taylor might have gotten KO'd, but I doubt he was pissing blood for days like Gatti and Green did.

But both fighters use toughness, determination, and power to beat more athletically gifted opponents.

I'm not touchy at all mate, I enjoy these debates sorry if it comes as touchy but I never feel that way.

Anyway back on topic I can see your point although maybe I underestimate Micky Ward slightly. For me he was a tough but limited guy, on the same level as John Duddy maybe. To me he wasn't that damaging seeing as Gatti beat him 2-1 and went the distance every time whereas when he stepped up to the likes of Oscar, Floyd and even Angel Manfredy and Baldomir he got killed. If he'd have been forced to go 10 rounds with any of those guys he'd have been permenantly damaged.

I don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness. If Froch was the same size as Gatti he'd have ruined him a lot more than Ward did imo. Actually maybe that's not true as Gatti would have been stopped inside 5 or 6 rounds so maybe total damage accumalation would have been less.

But I do thing the difference in class between Ward and Froch is greater than between Froch and Calzaghe.

I'd give Froch a chance at least against Calzaghe, I'd not give Ward any chance whatosever against Ward pound for pound.

[Galaxy]

Froch is not a great but with fights like Pascal & Taylor he is definitely great for the sport!

[Clanger]

You'd have to go back 4 or 5 years to find Calzaghe's last stoppage - and that the second time against Mario Veit.

Froch can bang from the first to the last bell and Joe is hittable and his chin is not as good as people think.

[RozzySean]

So now Froch isn't even as good as Mickey Ward?

How many world titles did Ward win again? How many former undisputed world champs and p4p stars did he beat?

Dude, you are so touchy. I didn't say Froch wasn't as good as Ward, I said he's not as punishing. And he's not. And as far has saying that Froch is closer to Ward than Calzaghe, let me break it down simply. Lets say the Joe Calzaghe gets an A+ grade as a fighter. Micky Ward gets a B grade as a fighter. Froch is a B+, not an A-. Kessler is an A-. There's a bigger gap between guys like Roy Jones, Calzaghe, James Toney, and Floyd Mayweather and Froch than there is between Froch and Ward.

Ward was one of the TOUGHEST fighters ever. Also, he had a style and a skillset that inflicted career changing punishment. Taylor might have gotten KO'd, but I doubt he was pissing blood for days like Gatti and Green did.

But both fighters use toughness, determination, and power to beat more athletically gifted opponents.

I'm not touchy at all mate, I enjoy these debates sorry if it comes as touchy but I never feel that way.

Anyway back on topic I can see your point although maybe I underestimate Micky Ward slightly. For me he was a tough but limited guy, on the same level as John Duddy maybe. To me he wasn't that damaging seeing as Gatti beat him 2-1 and went the distance every time whereas when he stepped up to the likes of Oscar, Floyd and even Angel Manfredy and Baldomir he got killed. If he'd have been forced to go 10 rounds with any of those guys he'd have been permenantly damaged.

I don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness. If Froch was the same size as Gatti he'd have ruined him a lot more than Ward did imo. Actually maybe that's not true as Gatti would have been stopped inside 5 or 6 rounds so maybe total damage accumalation would have been less.

But I do thing the difference in class between Ward and Froch is greater than between Froch and Calzaghe.

I'd give Froch a chance at least against Calzaghe, I'd not give Ward any chance whatosever against Ward pound for pound.

No offense, Baggins, but you are out of your mind on this one. Froch would have ZERO chance against Calzaghe. He would have ZERO chance against a true P4P talent like Prime Jones or Toney. Eubank, Benn, or Steve Collins would have destroyed him. It's not even close.

You don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness? Allow me to remind you of a few things about Gatti. The Manfredy stoppage was on a cut. Oscar was a P4P fighter in his prime and Gatti moved up in weight class to face him. He fought only 3 times at 140 before jumping up to face Oscar at 147. As for all the other stoppages 1. They call came after the 3 Ward fights. 2. Mayweather can punch at 140, Floyd was in him prime, and 140 is arguably his best weight. Oh, and he's the best fighter of our generation. 3. The Gomez and Baldy fights were at WW. Gatti never beat anybody decent at 147 and we all know he was shot at that point.

Many referees would have stopped Gatti/Ward 1 in round 9. He was out on his feet and taking shots. Go youtube it.

Froch has beaten TWO above average fighters. Yes, he beat a FORMER p4p fighter (from a lower weight class) after losing the first 8 rounds and getting knocked on his ass. In Calzaghe's whole career, he was never made to look as crappy as Taylor made Froch look for most of the fight. I don't ever remember Calzaghe needing a KO to win.

Here's a list of guys that Ward beat that are equal or near equal p4p to Froch's second best win, Pascal:

Gatti, Green, Augustus, Sanchez and Neary.

You'll see by the time Froch's career is over. Last week was probably his high water mark.

Let's say Miranda beats Ward and Dirrell becomes Froch's mandatory. He could very well lose that fight. Seriously. If Ward beats Miranda, I wouldn't be shocked if Ward beats Froch.

Pound for pound, I'd certainly give the edge to Froch, but if I had to compare Froch to somebody p4p from Ward's era and weight class, I'd probably say he's around the level of a prime Sharma Mitchell. A solid top 5-10 fighter in his weight class.

[Kev]

Dude, you are so touchy. I didn't say Froch wasn't as good as Ward, I said he's not as punishing. And he's not. And as far has saying that Froch is closer to Ward than Calzaghe, let me break it down simply. Lets say the Joe Calzaghe gets an A+ grade as a fighter. Micky Ward gets a B grade as a fighter. Froch is a B+, not an A-. Kessler is an A-. There's a bigger gap between guys like Roy Jones, Calzaghe, James Toney, and Floyd Mayweather and Froch than there is between Froch and Ward.

Ward was one of the TOUGHEST fighters ever. Also, he had a style and a skillset that inflicted career changing punishment. Taylor might have gotten KO'd, but I doubt he was pissing blood for days like Gatti and Green did.

But both fighters use toughness, determination, and power to beat more athletically gifted opponents.

I'm not touchy at all mate, I enjoy these debates sorry if it comes as touchy but I never feel that way.

Anyway back on topic I can see your point although maybe I underestimate Micky Ward slightly. For me he was a tough but limited guy, on the same level as John Duddy maybe. To me he wasn't that damaging seeing as Gatti beat him 2-1 and went the distance every time whereas when he stepped up to the likes of Oscar, Floyd and even Angel Manfredy and Baldomir he got killed. If he'd have been forced to go 10 rounds with any of those guys he'd have been permenantly damaged.

I don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness. If Froch was the same size as Gatti he'd have ruined him a lot more than Ward did imo. Actually maybe that's not true as Gatti would have been stopped inside 5 or 6 rounds so maybe total damage accumalation would have been less.

But I do thing the difference in class between Ward and Froch is greater than between Froch and Calzaghe.

I'd give Froch a chance at least against Calzaghe, I'd not give Ward any chance whatosever against Ward pound for pound.

No offense, Baggins, but you are out of your mind on this one. Froch would have ZERO chance against Calzaghe. He would have ZERO chance against a true P4P talent like Prime Jones or Toney. Eubank, Benn, or Steve Collins would have destroyed him. It's not even close.

You don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness? Allow me to remind you of a few things about Gatti. The Manfredy stoppage was on a cut. Oscar was a P4P fighter in his prime and Gatti moved up in weight class to face him. He fought only 3 times at 140 before jumping up to face Oscar at 147. As for all the other stoppages 1. They call came after the 3 Ward fights. 2. Mayweather can punch at 140, Floyd was in him prime, and 140 is arguably his best weight. Oh, and he's the best fighter of our generation. 3. The Gomez and Baldy fights were at WW. Gatti never beat anybody decent at 147 and we all know he was shot at that point.

Many referees would have stopped Gatti/Ward 1 in round 9. He was out on his feet and taking shots. Go youtube it.

Froch has beaten TWO above average fighters. Yes, he beat a FORMER p4p fighter (from a lower weight class) after losing the first 8 rounds and getting knocked on his ass. In Calzaghe's whole career, he was never made to look as crappy as Taylor made Froch look for most of the fight. I don't ever remember Calzaghe needing a KO to win.

Here's a list of guys that Ward beat that are equal or near equal p4p to Froch's second best win, Pascal:

Gatti, Green, Augustus, Sanchez and Neary.

You'll see by the time Froch's career is over. Last week was probably his high water mark.

Let's say Miranda beats Ward and Dirrell becomes Froch's mandatory. He could very well lose that fight. Seriously. If Ward beats Miranda, I wouldn't be shocked if Ward beats Froch.

Pound for pound, I'd certainly give the edge to Froch, but if I had to compare Froch to somebody p4p from Ward's era and weight class, I'd probably say he's around the level of a prime Sharma Mitchell. A solid top 5-10 fighter in his weight class.

No offense taken Sean we can agree to disagree. I seem to remember Julio Ceaser Chavez looking one dimensional, slow and poor for most of the first Meldrick Taylor fight but I assume you wouldn't suggest he's only a Sharmba Mitchell level guy, nor that Taylor is not on the same level as Meldrick Taylor.

Froch looked bad and struggled for a few rounds but he got himself right back into the fight.

Breaking it down it was only round 3 where he looked awful. Round 1 not a lot happened, quite a few observers actually gave Froch round 2, certainly it wasn't a one sided round for Taylor, then he lost round 3 big and round 4 but was already coming back into the fight by the end of 5th backing Taylor up with some powerful combinations in the last 30 seconds or so.

From round 6 onwards he lost at most 3 rounds, I think on my card I gave him most of them.

It's the mark of a great fighter to come back from adversity and Froch has shown he can come back.

He will win a couple more big fights before he's done, you'll see

[RozzySean]

I'm not touchy at all mate, I enjoy these debates sorry if it comes as touchy but I never feel that way.

Anyway back on topic I can see your point although maybe I underestimate Micky Ward slightly. For me he was a tough but limited guy, on the same level as John Duddy maybe. To me he wasn't that damaging seeing as Gatti beat him 2-1 and went the distance every time whereas when he stepped up to the likes of Oscar, Floyd and even Angel Manfredy and Baldomir he got killed. If he'd have been forced to go 10 rounds with any of those guys he'd have been permenantly damaged.

I don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness. If Froch was the same size as Gatti he'd have ruined him a lot more than Ward did imo. Actually maybe that's not true as Gatti would have been stopped inside 5 or 6 rounds so maybe total damage accumalation would have been less.

But I do thing the difference in class between Ward and Froch is greater than between Froch and Calzaghe.

I'd give Froch a chance at least against Calzaghe, I'd not give Ward any chance whatosever against Ward pound for pound.

No offense, Baggins, but you are out of your mind on this one. Froch would have ZERO chance against Calzaghe. He would have ZERO chance against a true P4P talent like Prime Jones or Toney. Eubank, Benn, or Steve Collins would have destroyed him. It's not even close.

You don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness? Allow me to remind you of a few things about Gatti. The Manfredy stoppage was on a cut. Oscar was a P4P fighter in his prime and Gatti moved up in weight class to face him. He fought only 3 times at 140 before jumping up to face Oscar at 147. As for all the other stoppages 1. They call came after the 3 Ward fights. 2. Mayweather can punch at 140, Floyd was in him prime, and 140 is arguably his best weight. Oh, and he's the best fighter of our generation. 3. The Gomez and Baldy fights were at WW. Gatti never beat anybody decent at 147 and we all know he was shot at that point.

Many referees would have stopped Gatti/Ward 1 in round 9. He was out on his feet and taking shots. Go youtube it.

Froch has beaten TWO above average fighters. Yes, he beat a FORMER p4p fighter (from a lower weight class) after losing the first 8 rounds and getting knocked on his ass. In Calzaghe's whole career, he was never made to look as crappy as Taylor made Froch look for most of the fight. I don't ever remember Calzaghe needing a KO to win.

Here's a list of guys that Ward beat that are equal or near equal p4p to Froch's second best win, Pascal:

Gatti, Green, Augustus, Sanchez and Neary.

You'll see by the time Froch's career is over. Last week was probably his high water mark.

Let's say Miranda beats Ward and Dirrell becomes Froch's mandatory. He could very well lose that fight. Seriously. If Ward beats Miranda, I wouldn't be shocked if Ward beats Froch.

Pound for pound, I'd certainly give the edge to Froch, but if I had to compare Froch to somebody p4p from Ward's era and weight class, I'd probably say he's around the level of a prime Sharma Mitchell. A solid top 5-10 fighter in his weight class.

No offense taken Sean we can agree to disagree. I seem to remember Julio Ceaser Chavez looking one dimensional, slow and poor for most of the first Meldrick Taylor fight but I assume you wouldn't suggest he's only a Sharmba Mitchell level guy, nor that Taylor is not on the same level as Meldrick Taylor.

Froch looked bad and struggled for a few rounds but he got himself right back into the fight.

Breaking it down it was only round 3 where he looked awful. Round 1 not a lot happened, quite a few observers actually gave Froch round 2, certainly it wasn't a one sided round for Taylor, then he lost round 3 big and round 4 but was already coming back into the fight by the end of 5th backing Taylor up with some powerful combinations in the last 30 seconds or so.

From round 6 onwards he lost at most 3 rounds, I think on my card I gave him most of them.

It's the mark of a great fighter to come back from adversity and Froch has shown he can come back.

He will win a couple more big fights before he's done, you'll see

On that I agree. I think he has some good wins in him, but I promise there will be a few losses if seriously tries to clean out 168.

There is a lot that I like about him as a fighter. He's not the fastest guy, but he is very relaxed in the ring, like Pavlik, unlike Taylor. That helps his stamina, for sure, but it also helps you take punches. When tight, hyper fighters get hit flush, all the muscle tension worsens the impact. Being relaxed also helps him keep his composure and press on even when things are going poorly. He's got a pretty good jab and he hits hard. That along makes him dangerous. I also like that one of his best punches is the uppercut. That's unusual and many guys are open for.

Still, he just isn't fast enough to be as technically flawed as he is. It's going to catch up with him sooner or later. Probably sooner. Hell, it caught up with Roy Jones eventually and Froch doesn't have a quarter of Roy's reflexes. In some ways, it makes Froch more intriguing.

[Kev]

No offense, Baggins, but you are out of your mind on this one. Froch would have ZERO chance against Calzaghe. He would have ZERO chance against a true P4P talent like Prime Jones or Toney. Eubank, Benn, or Steve Collins would have destroyed him. It's not even close.

You don't put Ward near Froch in terms of power or toughness? Allow me to remind you of a few things about Gatti. The Manfredy stoppage was on a cut. Oscar was a P4P fighter in his prime and Gatti moved up in weight class to face him. He fought only 3 times at 140 before jumping up to face Oscar at 147. As for all the other stoppages 1. They call came after the 3 Ward fights. 2. Mayweather can punch at 140, Floyd was in him prime, and 140 is arguably his best weight. Oh, and he's the best fighter of our generation. 3. The Gomez and Baldy fights were at WW. Gatti never beat anybody decent at 147 and we all know he was shot at that point.

Many referees would have stopped Gatti/Ward 1 in round 9. He was out on his feet and taking shots. Go youtube it.

Froch has beaten TWO above average fighters. Yes, he beat a FORMER p4p fighter (from a lower weight class) after losing the first 8 rounds and getting knocked on his ass. In Calzaghe's whole career, he was never made to look as crappy as Taylor made Froch look for most of the fight. I don't ever remember Calzaghe needing a KO to win.

Here's a list of guys that Ward beat that are equal or near equal p4p to Froch's second best win, Pascal:

Gatti, Green, Augustus, Sanchez and Neary.

You'll see by the time Froch's career is over. Last week was probably his high water mark.

Let's say Miranda beats Ward and Dirrell becomes Froch's mandatory. He could very well lose that fight. Seriously. If Ward beats Miranda, I wouldn't be shocked if Ward beats Froch.

Pound for pound, I'd certainly give the edge to Froch, but if I had to compare Froch to somebody p4p from Ward's era and weight class, I'd probably say he's around the level of a prime Sharma Mitchell. A solid top 5-10 fighter in his weight class.

No offense taken Sean we can agree to disagree. I seem to remember Julio Ceaser Chavez looking one dimensional, slow and poor for most of the first Meldrick Taylor fight but I assume you wouldn't suggest he's only a Sharmba Mitchell level guy, nor that Taylor is not on the same level as Meldrick Taylor.

Froch looked bad and struggled for a few rounds but he got himself right back into the fight.

Breaking it down it was only round 3 where he looked awful. Round 1 not a lot happened, quite a few observers actually gave Froch round 2, certainly it wasn't a one sided round for Taylor, then he lost round 3 big and round 4 but was already coming back into the fight by the end of 5th backing Taylor up with some powerful combinations in the last 30 seconds or so.

From round 6 onwards he lost at most 3 rounds, I think on my card I gave him most of them.

It's the mark of a great fighter to come back from adversity and Froch has shown he can come back.

He will win a couple more big fights before he's done, you'll see

On that I agree. I think he has some good wins in him, but I promise there will be a few losses if seriously tries to clean out 168.

There is a lot that I like about him as a fighter. He's not the fastest guy, but he is very relaxed in the ring, like Pavlik, unlike Taylor. That helps his stamina, for sure, but it also helps you take punches. When tight, hyper fighters get hit flush, all the muscle tension worsens the impact. Being relaxed also helps him keep his composure and press on even when things are going poorly. He's got a pretty good jab and he hits hard. That along makes him dangerous. I also like that one of his best punches is the uppercut. That's unusual and many guys are open for.

Still, he just isn't fast enough to be as technically flawed as he is. It's going to catch up with him sooner or later. Probably sooner. Hell, it caught up with Roy Jones eventually and Froch doesn't have a quarter of Roy's reflexes. In some ways, it makes Froch more intriguing.

Yeah definitely he's not unbeatable but he is dangerous, very dangerous. The way he finished Taylor in the last round was clinical I was so impressed.

He didn't get over anxious, he didn't smother himself he just looked totally calm and in control, methodically picking his shots and dismantling Taylor.

I can't think of any fighter recently who has done that good a demolition job, the calmness of it I mean, there were no lunging wild shots he just took him apart in the most clinical fashion.

For me, he has the killer instinct and that will help him go a long way.

He's also highly underated as a boxer, you don't win two ABA titles, a bronze medal at the World Amatuer championships and the best boxer award and Gold medal at the Multi Nations tournament in 2001 for nothing.

His amatuer record was 88-8 which shows he's got some serious boxing skills as well. I dont think he will be outboxed as easily as people think, a lot of it was due to nerves, and also that Jermain Taylor was simply brilliant for a few rounds.

[denilson200]

You'd have to go back 4 or 5 years to find Calzaghe's last stoppage - and that the second time against Mario Veit.

Froch can bang from the first to the last bell and Joe is hittable and his chin is not as good as people think.

Trust me, this time next year it will be *Froch who ?* the next guy he faces, if he is a top fighter, he will beat him

[Pugilistic]

Froch certainly lacks boxing ability but he does have a decent workrate,a good chin and power.