Anybody think Pac has lost 5 fights and JMM has only lost 1??

[Violent Demise]

Are these valid? Like is this from a real article? Either way anybody, who had Marquez up by more than one point is clearly delusional because thats the only way I give people the slightest reasoning for having him up in the fight, there is no way he was up two or three rounds when the knockdown is taken into consideration. Once again, what rounds did they give to Marquez? I guarantee if I sat down a watched the fight through with anyone I could convince them that two rounds people always seem to give Marquez (1 and 11) clearly didn't belong to him.

Taeth,

You clearly have no shame.
Cause if you had the slightest you would have responded by saying you were wrong in your 1st comment.
But I should have known that you wouldn't.
You just got your ass handed to you by ICB and your response is.
Are these valid?
Followed by
Either way.... blah! blah!

Trying to discredit the list of scores.

I discredit people just blurting out scores, Give me a round by round disclosure, and I will debate those rounds with people. If you are so sure a guy won a round, why are people so hesitant to go punch by punch through a round? I realize my spanish comment was misunderstood as racist because some uneducated people have been falsely taught what has actually transpired over the last 400 years, but nevertheless if I want to see where a list came from, or why these guys picked the fight the way they did, why should I be discredited for it. I am not one of those guys who follows "expert opinions" blindly. Half the people who cover boxing know shit all about the sport because they've actually wanted to cover other sports, but have been stuck with boxing.

Round by round scores have been posted a bunch of times. You just chose to ignore them

[ICB]

Heres my scorecard Taeth from ages ago.

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

114-113 JMM

I think the 8th round was borderline 10-8 round for JMM aswell.

And lastly that post i made with all the score's was just to prove your point wrong, about the Mexican/Spanish comment.

[Taeth]

Why did you score round 1 for Marquez he landed one good right cross? Where as Pacquiao landed a good cross, and several to the body.

Also the 11th round, Manny outlanded Marquez, he inflicted more damage, he was backing MArquez up, Marquez landed a few punches but Manny had excellent defense in parts making Marquez miss combinations.

[Taeth]

Taeth,

You clearly have no shame.
Cause if you had the slightest you would have responded by saying you were wrong in your 1st comment.
But I should have known that you wouldn't.
You just got your ass handed to you by ICB and your response is.
Are these valid?
Followed by
Either way.... blah! blah!

Trying to discredit the list of scores.

I discredit people just blurting out scores, Give me a round by round disclosure, and I will debate those rounds with people. If you are so sure a guy won a round, why are people so hesitant to go punch by punch through a round? I realize my spanish comment was misunderstood as racist because some uneducated people have been falsely taught what has actually transpired over the last 400 years, but nevertheless if I want to see where a list came from, or why these guys picked the fight the way they did, why should I be discredited for it. I am not one of those guys who follows "expert opinions" blindly. Half the people who cover boxing know shit all about the sport because they've actually wanted to cover other sports, but have been stuck with boxing.

Round by round scores have been posted a bunch of times. You just chose to ignore them

No I have always argued rounds 1 and 11, and people don't have a good excuse for giving them to Marquez.

[Taeth]

Because half of the people in latin america have spanish decent ? Are you kidding me !!!!! Are any of you aware of the large number of Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese, German, Lebanese and Jewish people in Latin America...... Then Filipinos are also Spanish or one could argue Chinese base on their cultural influence. Seems the majority of the people in here are unable to distinguish the difference between race and ethnicity.

Race is something you're born with an ethnicity is what your culture is. Like your race could be Chinese and your ethnicity could be American if you were born in America.

So how are Mexicans Spanish?

Let me educate you:

Mexican! Not Latino, Latinos are the white people of Latin America.
........... Not Hispanic, Hispanics are the people of Spain, European.

Mexicans are indigenous people! They are not white! So do not promote the cultural castration the their people!


To people of the USA, they are not foreigners to the land.


Mexican people of today are primarily a mixed blood and / or full blooded Indigenous people.

92% of the the so called Hispanics in Atzlan (the Southwestern USA) are people of Mexican descent. Not foreigners or minorities as generally labeled. They are also 71% of the so-called Hispanics/Latinos in the USA as a whole. So how wrong are you to call anyone in Latin America Spanish ? I say educate yourself before you make comments you know very little of and we are to believe you know anything about boxing?

Anyone of any color born in Mexico is viewed as a Mexican, ( This applies to most countries in Latin America) they are not race grouping individuals like people of the USA and their forefathers from Europe!

Study anthropology, you can't educate me on this. There are virtually no true north american natives left in mexico except in secluded groups. The indeginous population was almost totally eradicated in mexico and the carribean islands. I've taken up to 400 level meso-american anthropology courses.

As for the culture, there is no north american culture that has been more assimilated by European people than the Mexican culture. Their religion is European, they beliefs are European. Once again out of all the partially aboriginal people, how many still believe in the Aztec gods? Many have reclaimed their culture for financial purposes, but still the majority of mexicans are christians who abide by the bibles' laws.

I am not trying to say Mexican haven't developed their own culture, but its more tied into their spanish ancestry than it is into their Mayan or Aztec ancesty.

So because you've taken courses on it you know more about Mexico than Mexicans? WTF are you talking about anyway, you start off by making a statement that implies you discount anyones score because of their heritage. This further implies that an entire culture of people are unable to objectively score a fight. You further go on to say, it is impossible to go against your scoring beacause only your score is right. Would you deny there were enough swing rounds to give both fights to either fighter?

I know more about Mexicans than people that haven't studied it at all, and listen to folk tales from their parents. Who would know more about the history of Canada, me or somebody from Mexico who studied Canadian History? Obviously they would. I deny 115-112 for Marquez absolutely. I also deny that there were enough swing rounds in this fight, I think each round decisively indicated who won in this fight even though there were close rounds on both sides. Round 1 Pacquiao doubled the punches landed by Marquez, and sure Marquez had the one hardest punch, Pacquiao landed a punch almost as cleanly in return, plus multiple crosses to the body. The eleventh round was one of Pacquiao stronger rounds and people somehow give it to Marquez. And I've already stated that I was wrong stating what I did about only Mexican's thinking Marquez won, I was being brash and most people that did support Marquez winning had been Mexican. IMO its like saying most people that thought Calzaghe won against Hopkins are brits, is that such a racial travesty? Obviously I am overgeneralizing, but does not everyone do it on here? I say my scoring is right because I don't think anyone watches and rewatches fights as much as I do on here(except ICB). Also its not about I am only right, I am having a real debate where you are free to disprove through fact or evidence what I am saying. People on here seem to think I just say your stupid, I am right, your wrong. Thats not what I am doing, I debate these things and obviously in presenting an arguement you believe in, unless its educational, its beneficial to fully emerse yourself into your beliefs. If people actually broke down the fight, or more importantly key round in such a way that came across convincingly I would understand their logic. When people give Marquez 115-112 scorecard, where the fuck did that come from? How the hell did he win 4 more rounds than Pacquiao? This fight was like Hatton-Collazo it was a back and forth affair, not close every round. Pacquiao clearly won his rounds and Marquez clearly won his rounds. The closest thing I could see Marquez getting to a win is a draw in the second fight. IMO giving him both the 1st and 11th round is biased because he truly deserved neither of them.

The thing I was arguing about Mexican heritage is a completely different subject where people have no idea what they are talking about, are trying to educate me about what happened because thats their cultural background without the actual research into what happened.

[:::PSL:::]

Marquez should thank Burt Clements for getting the draw in MP-JMM 1.

As for the rematch, all I can say is check out my blog http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...marquez-2.html

Btw, Pac knocked down JMM TWICE in 3rd round.

[Violent Demise]

Why did you score round 1 for Marquez he landed one good right cross? Where as Pacquiao landed a good cross, and several to the body.

Also the 11th round, Manny outlanded Marquez, he inflicted more damage, he was backing MArquez up, Marquez landed a few punches but Manny had excellent defense in parts making Marquez miss combinations.

Your out of your fukking mind. And your fukking blind. Marquez landed a solid cross on Pacquiao. Pacquiao landed a glancing one. And Pacquiao landed nothing to the body you fukking liar. Marquez landed the only good body shot with like 23 seconds left in the round. The first round was a clear Marquez round.

[Pavlik]

Marquez on both fights showed that he is a total package himself, but Pacquiao was able to hurt him more and actually dropped him. Marquez claiming to have won both should stayed on his feet and do more damage next time, too bad this version of Paqcauio he is facing won't overcommit to his punches, has better balance, defense and power.
PAC will knock him out the next time they fight

[ElTerribleMorales]

Marquez should thank Burt Clements for getting the draw in MP-JMM 1.

As for the rematch, all I can say is check out my blog http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...marquez-2.html

Btw, Pac knocked down JMM TWICE in 3rd round.

doesn't say much in Pac's favor if he scored (at least in your eyes) 5 knockdowns and yet is still swarmed with controversy against him, cause most feel Marquez won both fights

[XaduBoxer]

Marquez should thank Burt Clements for getting the draw in MP-JMM 1.

As for the rematch, all I can say is check out my blog http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...marquez-2.html

Btw, Pac knocked down JMM TWICE in 3rd round.

I totally agree with the 2 KDs... JMM holding the ropes for survival... It should have been a 10-7 round... JMM got disoriented after the 2 KDs...
.

[XaduBoxer]

Marquez should thank Burt Clements for getting the draw in MP-JMM 1.

As for the rematch, all I can say is check out my blog http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...marquez-2.html

Btw, Pac knocked down JMM TWICE in 3rd round.

doesn't say much in Pac's favor if he scored (at least in your eyes) 5 knockdowns and yet is still swarmed with controversy against him, cause most feel Marquez won both fights

PAC's forte is knocking down, knocking out and mauling people inside the ring... JMM's forte is counterpunching people... Who do you think had more success in doing his thing on the other boxer?? PAC's 5 KDs on JMM was very impressive, no one ever had done that to JMM while PAC been giving rounds to other opponents and not only to JMM...
.

[CFH]

Heres my scorecard Taeth from ages ago.

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

114-113 JMM

I think the 8th round was borderline 10-8 round for JMM aswell.

And lastly that post i made with all the score's was just to prove your point wrong, about the Mexican/Spanish comment.

I scored it almost identically. The only difference in my card is that I gave Marquez the 7th round, but I really feel that round could've been scored for either fighter (or even a draw). Anyways, I had it 115-112 Marquez, but there were several extremely close rounds and I can understand why some people think Pac won.

[Addicted to_boxing]

Study anthropology, you can't educate me on this. There are virtually no true north american natives left in mexico except in secluded groups. The indeginous population was almost totally eradicated in mexico and the carribean islands. I've taken up to 400 level meso-american anthropology courses.

As for the culture, there is no north american culture that has been more assimilated by European people than the Mexican culture. Their religion is European, they beliefs are European. Once again out of all the partially aboriginal people, how many still believe in the Aztec gods? Many have reclaimed their culture for financial purposes, but still the majority of mexicans are christians who abide by the bibles' laws.

I am not trying to say Mexican haven't developed their own culture, but its more tied into their spanish ancestry than it is into their Mayan or Aztec ancesty.

So because you've taken courses on it you know more about Mexico than Mexicans? WTF are you talking about anyway, you start off by making a statement that implies you discount anyones score because of their heritage. This further implies that an entire culture of people are unable to objectively score a fight. You further go on to say, it is impossible to go against your scoring beacause only your score is right. Would you deny there were enough swing rounds to give both fights to either fighter?

I know more about Mexicans than people that haven't studied it at all, and listen to folk tales from their parents. Who would know more about the history of Canada, me or somebody from Mexico who studied Canadian History? Obviously they would. I deny 115-112 for Marquez absolutely. I also deny that there were enough swing rounds in this fight, I think each round decisively indicated who won in this fight even though there were close rounds on both sides. Round 1 Pacquiao doubled the punches landed by Marquez, and sure Marquez had the one hardest punch, Pacquiao landed a punch almost as cleanly in return, plus multiple crosses to the body. The eleventh round was one of Pacquiao stronger rounds and people somehow give it to Marquez. And I've already stated that I was wrong stating what I did about only Mexican's thinking Marquez won, I was being brash and most people that did support Marquez winning had been Mexican. IMO its like saying most people that thought Calzaghe won against Hopkins are brits, is that such a racial travesty? Obviously I am overgeneralizing, but does not everyone do it on here? I say my scoring is right because I don't think anyone watches and rewatches fights as much as I do on here(except ICB). Also its not about I am only right, I am having a real debate where you are free to disprove through fact or evidence what I am saying. People on here seem to think I just say your stupid, I am right, your wrong. Thats not what I am doing, I debate these things and obviously in presenting an arguement you believe in, unless its educational, its beneficial to fully emerse yourself into your beliefs. If people actually broke down the fight, or more importantly key round in such a way that came across convincingly I would understand their logic. When people give Marquez 115-112 scorecard, where the fuck did that come from? How the hell did he win 4 more rounds than Pacquiao? This fight was like Hatton-Collazo it was a back and forth affair, not close every round. Pacquiao clearly won his rounds and Marquez clearly won his rounds. The closest thing I could see Marquez getting to a win is a draw in the second fight. IMO giving him both the 1st and 11th round is biased because he truly deserved neither of them.

The thing I was arguing about Mexican heritage is a completely different subject where people have no idea what they are talking about, are trying to educate me about what happened because thats their cultural background without the actual research into what happened.

Well all I can say is I hope you paid off all your student loans because your instructors are full of shit. You are trying to tell a Mexican he is Spanish. 2nd of all we are not Christians for the most part we are Catholics, Changing religion does not change your heritage only your culture. What your instructor failed to teach you is that no one in Latin America accepts being called Spanish because they are not !!! Try this shit next time you are in Mexico and see how fasrfast you get your ass kicked. Mexicans had exposure to Spanish ways but that does/ did not change their physical make up. What you are saying is the equivelant to saying all cultures having exposure to Coca Cola and that now drink it are now Americans ..... And all your classroom follies do not equate to my flowing Mexican Blood and 35 years of traveling throughout the AMERICAS 75-125 days a year.

Books lie and are nothing more than an authors interpretation and are not factual ( are books not edited? ) Try reading an American History book and then read a Mexican history book and you will see they have radical vast different stories as to how the Mexican territory became property of the USA.

So all Mexicans should be schooled abroad by your instructors? Contrary to your studies there are 62 indigenous peoples/ tribes living in Mexico protected by the constitution and still practicing old beliefs and non Spanish speaking

[BIG H]

Can you be p4p number 1 if you are 10-3 for the last 5 years?

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

You know... Iv'e really made a point of averting this discussion. I just don't want to get into a debate about it.

Why? Because the opinion is so split. There's just no point.

BUT, i will say that i have watched and re-watched and re-thought, and re-scored and then re-re-watched BOTH fights over and over (I'll be honest, i think the main reason is that both fights are so damn 'Watchable'. ). And i'll be honest Marquez won both fights.

Not only that, but at times in the second fight, Marquez impressed me so much i even started thinking about naming my unborn Son Marquez

Seriously talented, gutsy fighter is Marquez