Has anyone hit bottom faster than Jones?

[hitmanhatton]

Can't argue with that. He had a good excuse for the first Tarver fight, Tarver II he looked not too bad, you could argue he just got caught, it happens. But after that he was unrecognizeable. I think Tarver II gave him a good taste of his own mortality, and that messed with his confidence in a big way.

The knockout didn't make him bad. Roy was there for the taking the moment he moved down from Heavyweight.

An oft used excuse by his fans, but hardly provable. I was basing my point on the way Jones actually fought in the ring. Sure the weight loss had an effect, but there was obviously something else going on. The Jones that fought Johnson, and after that, was not the same fighter as the one that fought Tarver I & 2, not even close. But if you wanna say otherwise, go ahead.

the move down from HW did effect him in a big way, and then perhaps once he was ko'd once it made him more hesitant and cautious... he lost his aura of 'invincibility'

[salty trunks]

The thing that upset me the most about Roy is that he never, and I mean never got up from a knock down. I've been a huge fan of Roy over the years, one of the biggest. I've often thought on some levels that he was the Muhammad Ali of my generation when he as at his best. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone in boxing that had that rare combination of speed, knockout power, and flashiness when Roy was at his best. But I really wish he would stop. I'd have to disagree with one of the posters in here who said that Paul Williams will fall to the bottom fast. I just don't see that happening. I do however, see alot of great boxers tripping over their own feet running from a fight with him.

He got up from a serious knockdown against Lou Del Valle. He walked right into a straight left that dropped him like a sack of rocks.
The thing with Roy is I dont think he ever had a light heavyweight chin, he just never got hit clean. Now that hes slower and older the punches are finding the mark easier on him. Guys with unorthodox skills that rely on tremendous speed always become ordinary overnight once they slow down. Same thing with Ali only his chin was so good he just hung in and took sustained beatings that proved nothing. Jones should have retired after Ruiz.

[hitmanhatton]

An oft used excuse by his fans, but hardly provable. I was basing my point on the way Jones actually fought in the ring. Sure the weight loss had an effect, but there was obviously something else going on. The Jones that fought Johnson, and after that, was not the same fighter as the one that fought Tarver I & 2, not even close. But if you wanna say otherwise, go ahead.

the move down from HW did effect him in a big way, and then perhaps once he was ko'd once it made him more hesitant and cautious... he lost his aura of 'invincibility'

I can live with that more or less. But in the 2nd fight I thought he looked reasonably sharp. He should have had time to get back much of what he lost, Maybe not the same Roy as before the trip to HW, but still not too bad. The point being that he still had a long way to fall, in terms of performance, which is what the thread is about.

you mean in the 2nd fight prioer to be knocked out ....., as has been seen before knock out like that will take something from a fighter, this the case with roy, the issue with the weight imo led to him being ko'd by tarver and it was a downward spiral from there on

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

It's all in the legs.

[salty trunks]

It's all in the legs.

You're saying Roy had no legs in the 2nd Tarver fight?

I think he means his legs are skinny which they are especially for a light heavyweight.

[salty trunks]

Just the fact that he never had the physical makeup to take solid shots from a light heavy. I think he lost a step by the second Tarver fight meaning he was there to be hit cleaner.
I think Jones was slipping before he faced Tarver it wasnt only the heavyweight move scenario and Tarver has to get some credit for putting the finishing touches on Jones, but realistically with Jones age, fighting style and physical size it was bound to happen suddenly like it did and I think Tarver style would have always given Jones problems even in his prime.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Just the fact that he never had the physical makeup to take solid shots from a light heavy. I think he lost a step by the second Tarver fight meaning he was there to be hit cleaner.
I think Jones was slipping before he faced Tarver it wasnt only the heavyweight move scenario and Tarver has to get some credit for putting the finishing touches on Jones, but realistically with Jones age, fighting style and physical size it was bound to happen suddenly like it did and I think Tarver style would have always given Jones problems even in his prime.

And Tarver knew it

[salty trunks]

Just the fact that he never had the physical makeup to take solid shots from a light heavy. I think he lost a step by the second Tarver fight meaning he was there to be hit cleaner.
I think Jones was slipping before he faced Tarver it wasnt only the heavyweight move scenario and Tarver has to get some credit for putting the finishing touches on Jones, but realistically with Jones age, fighting style and physical size it was bound to happen suddenly like it did and I think Tarver style would have always given Jones problems even in his prime.

If he was significantly diminished, it didn't show in the first two rounds of that fight, he looked pretty sharp. And it's not like he left himself open, his guard was up but but was a pinpoint shot. Some call it lucky, I ain't gonna argue against that.

Look, I am the first to say that a prime Roy beats Tarver 9 times out of ten. But in the case of the 2nd fight KO the weight loss thing gets overplayed by many, including Roy. I'm know there are many who disagree, such is debate. It's easy to build up an argument for it, after the fact. I'm moving on.

Like I said stylistically I think Tarver always gives Jones trouble. He was a tall southpaw counterpuncher who refused to lead against Jones, another reason it was easier for him to expose Jones lost step.
I think the weight loss only sped up the process of Jones falling from his best because his body went through huge changes physically so I think it was a factor, but like you said not the only factor.

[Zilla]

I'm positive that someone fell from grace faster than RJJ, but I think had Roy never gone to heavyweight in the first place then he wouldn't have lost to Tarver or anyone else at 175. He should have retired a lot sooner.

Sadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.

[salty trunks]

I'm positive that someone fell from grace faster than RJJ, but I think had Roy never gone to heavyweight in the first place then he wouldn't have lost to Tarver or anyone else at 175. He should have retired a lot sooner.

Sadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.

Also when you look at Montell Griffins style it kind of proves there was a way to Jones. Montell lead a little more but he still waited to counterpunch Jones with three four shots to try and offset some of Jones speed. That was giving Jones hell for a few rounds. Counterpunching was the only way to beat Jones. Noone was going to outbox him or overwhelm him, he was just too quick. You had to outsmart him and both Griffin and Tarver came up with good ways of unsettling Jones by using counterpunches taken from one of Jones moves or off of punches he threw.

[Zilla]

I'm positive that someone fell from grace faster than RJJ, but I think had Roy never gone to heavyweight in the first place then he wouldn't have lost to Tarver or anyone else at 175. He should have retired a lot sooner.

Sadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.

Also when you look at Montell Griffins style it kind of proves there was a way to Jones. Montell lead a little more but he still waited to counterpunch Jones with three four shots to try and offset some of Jones speed. That was giving Jones hell for a few rounds. Counterpunching was the only way to beat Jones. Noone was going to outbox him or overwhelm him, he was just too quick. You had to outsmart him and both Griffin and Tarver came up with good ways of unsettling Jones by using counterpunches taken from one of Jones moves or off of punches he threw.

I wouldn't say Griffin had the formula. I mean, he was able to frustrate a distracted Jones who was trying to get into rap and playing a little too much basketball and worrying over friends who'd been crippled in the ring. Once Montel got a completely focused Roy I would say scrap everything he did right the first time around considering THAT result.

[salty trunks]

I didnt say formula I said a way to Jones meaning a way to hit him. I dont think Jones would have ever approached the fight with Montell like he did in the second fight if Montell hadnt given him trouble. He was uncharacteristically very offensive.
Remember he kept saying "RJ" was going to come out in the second Tarver fight, and he got knocked out.

[Zilla]

Well he clocked Roy with a one-in-a-million punch and Roy wasn't being honest with himself or the fans. He wasn't himself. Roy was doing a lot of talking up as if he had to drag himself into the ring. I remember the Johnson fight when a gold-medal winner lent him his medal and once Roy got int he ring he mouthed the words, "I'm back." It was if he had to talk himself up for it. I don't think Roy came back at all from the HW division. He vanished.

[CutMeMick]

Mijares maybe and Cotto is working on it as are the Pittsburh Steelers.

Waht do you think?

I see you started drinking early this year Ted...
Its only the 21st just a few more days for X-Mas...

Would you care to elaborate why you feel RJJ hit bottom fast.
I personally don't see it.
Just to think alone he's been in the P4P rankings since 1993.

If your talking solely on recent times, he's bounced back from loses.

I just don't see RJJ as the it guy to hit bottom...

Mijares of recent times IMO is at the top of this list.
He loses to an obscure opponent who most people including myself thought he would beat. He loses not once but twice to him.
Nehomar himself has shown class and skill in his fights. Still I think Mijares should have beaten him.

Joan Guzman not only hit bottom fast having fought twice in 2 yrs and being gifted a draw.

Juan Baby Bull Diaz also comes to mind if you take into consideration he argueably got beat by Paulie twice.

[El Kabong]

Sadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.

a seriously weight drained RJJ still beat Tarver in the first fight. I don't think Tarver ever had ANYONE's number much less Roy's. There was no reason for Roy to even take the first fight, Tarver's gameplan was to talk shit and get Roy to fight until he was able to beat Roy.

Let's not forget Montel Griffin was a very tough fighter, he beat a couple top teir fighters.