America is an illegal and racist country much like Israel

[Gandalf]

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

#1 NO, we should have just stayed there in the 1980's and all this Al Queda, Taliban bullshit would have been avoided had we just given the Afghani people a hand in building their country after they got rid of the Soviets.

#2 Once again my issue with the way you are viewing this is that you judge the PAST by the morals and values we have TODAY. That is a flawed logic because the way we look at things today is incredibly different than the reality of life in the past. Now if we're talking recent past then there may be a little room for you to look at those events the way you're already looking at things.

1 - That might have been a good idea.

2 - I still have to disagree with you. I think that no matter what period you are living in, killing people and stealing their land is always going to be regarded as wrong. Just because it is me stealing the land that in no way justifies that kind of action. It was wrong period. And the fact that we are allowing Israel to do the very same thing today (with less bloodshed) fills me with complete revulsion.

[El Kabong]

2 - I still have to disagree with you. I think that no matter what period you are living in, killing people and stealing their land is always going to be regarded as wrong. Just because it is me stealing the land that in no way justifies that kind of action. It was wrong period. And the fact that we are allowing Israel to do the very same thing today (with less bloodshed) fills me with complete revulsion.

OK so then why the pinpoint hatred on the United States? Why not hate on Spain, England, Portugal, The Netherlands, Germany, etc? Why no hate for China? If you were truly following what you say you're following then you'd hate on everybody and not just the US and Israel.

Why not hate on ancient Empires too? Stupid Egyptians, why the fuck would you use manual labor to build the pyramids? I mean HELLOOOOO machines can do those things better than people you rubes!....do you now see the flaw in your logic?

[Gandalf]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

Yeah who are we fighting? Al Qaeda and the taliban. Ohh but my guess is you think we shouldn't be fighting the Taliban, correct? Yet the Taliban are a breed of pure evil (this isn't right wing media talking, this is the truth) that people like me and you can't even begin to comprehend. Heinous, heinous people who do awful things and live life completely backwards, yet since they weren't the ones who ran the planes into the building, I guess we have no business interfering with their way of business.

But let me guess, we played a huge hand into putting them into power, that was going to be your next argument right? Why does that matter though? We have put evil people into power before and had to remove them, the Taliban need to be eradicated. This is a simple fact. I believe this with all of my heart, there is no other way to go about dealing with them.

Iraq is a cluster fuck, I know this. Our military planning going into Afghanistan kind of sucked. That's a bureaucracy problem, we are not the bad guys in Afghanistan. Iraq is more murky, we were WRONG to go in there and because of that we have the blood of a country's civil war on our hands. Still, we aren't the only bad guys their either and if you truly believe we are then you are simply detached from reality. I guess you aren't fully to blame as what you are reading is from anti-Imperialists who are actually just anti-Americans and people who have likely never stepped foot in Iraq or Afghanistan in their lives. It's made clear by your posts too.

Of the two wars I do happen to think that Afghanistan has some kind of jusification. However, diving in there as soon as the twin towers hit the floor was rash and foolish. Whence why we are still there. We didn't know the region and miscalculated what we were dealing with. I'm with you in arguing that the Taliban is a nasty piece of work and their mindsets are postively medieval. But those that caused 9-11 were primarily from allies such as Saudi Arabia. The neo-cons were itching to go to war any way they could because war for them means money. And off to war they went. Why not invade a nasty country like Saudi Arabia instead and hold them responsible for 9-11? Hell, why not invade Germany too?

Yes, America has put evil leaders into power and they have removed many more. However, this doesn't escape the fact that the US has no right to be backing military coups against sovereign governments or to be forcing their economic agenda the world over. How many times has the US government tried to assasinate Castro over the years? The American elite is absolutely bat shit crazy in its rigid determination to impose its will on the world. They will resort to any means possible to make sure resistance is futile. We have seen it time and time again. 9-11 was terrible, but let's look at the reasons why someone would want to do that. It is nothing to do with being jealous of the freedoms granted to US citizens and everything to do with years of resentment at measures imposed on individuals the world over. Evil breeds yet more evil. And in fighting the so called 'war on terror' evil is indeed breeding ever more evil. It's a futile quest and the elite know full well that it has no meaning.

Iraq was/is a clusterfuck. The reasons for war were a blatant lie. The way the media approached it was retarded and irresponsible. The whole war was about expanding the interests of private corporations in the military industrial complex and maintaining a grip on Iraqi oil. The war was not only morally wrong, but illegal. Going by the rules applied at Nuremburg, Bush and Blair should be tried as war criminals. Once again evil breeds evil and I'm sure that as a consequence a lot more people will be wishing for nasty things to happen to America and the UK. You make your own bed as they say. For sure it isn't only America, Britain likes to tag along on these little adventures too.

I don't know what you mean about the people I read being anti American. Klein is certainly very critical of the US, but I don't neccessarily regard that as anti-American. What's she supposed to say? That US foreign policy has spread happiness and joy around the world? Obviously it hasn't. And if you would take the time to read her book 'The shock doctrine' you will see that she has spent time in most of the places where America has spread its ugly tentacles and interviewed a lot of people who suffered during oppressive regimes or witnessed coups and so on. It's a great book and well worth a read. I certainly learned quite a bit. Chomsky is the other one that I read and listen to a lot. Again he is critical of America, but I don't regard him as anti-American. He is usually bang on the money with his observations and backs it all up with evidence.

Just face it, the American elite are a bunch of corrupt shits who are now even turning on their own population. I'm definitely against that kind of behaviour. Otherwise, I regard fellow Americans here as decent chaps, but I see no great problem with pointing out the evil and despotic nature of the corporate and political elites or that the country was built on genocide.

[Gandalf]

2 - I still have to disagree with you. I think that no matter what period you are living in, killing people and stealing their land is always going to be regarded as wrong. Just because it is me stealing the land that in no way justifies that kind of action. It was wrong period. And the fact that we are allowing Israel to do the very same thing today (with less bloodshed) fills me with complete revulsion.

OK so then why the pinpoint hatred on the United States? Why not hate on Spain, England, Portugal, The Netherlands, Germany, etc? Why no hate for China? If you were truly following what you say you're following then you'd hate on everybody and not just the US and Israel.

Why not hate on ancient Empires too? Stupid Egyptians, why the fuck would you use manual labor to build the pyramids? I mean HELLOOOOO machines can do those things better than people you rubes!....do you now see the flaw in your logic?

Lyle, my issues are with corporate and political elites. It has nothing to do with the American citizens of today. I have no issues with you Americans, but will for sure point out corruption in those elites and just yesterday added the fact that commiting genocide against native Indians wasn't a very nice thing to do. You and Amat didn't do that, so don't take it like I am condemning you personally. I am not.

For sure each of those countries has their own twisted and bitter history and I'm against all that too. But the influence of those countries is long gone and not really in the news for current discussion. America is the global power in the world today and wields that power in a very twisted way. I am very much against that. If America was doing good things for the world and its own citizenry then there wouldn't really be much to rail against. And actually I did start a thread about a year ago railing against China. And for sure I have said many negative things about Korea and the UK over the years. Israel is another one of my annoyances too. In fact if you were to have a chat with me, you would realise I talk quite a lot about the things I read in books and the media. I have an interest in current affairs and America tends to be part of that.

So again I don't think my logic is particularly flawed.

[Gandalf]

I had a feeling that this thread would spark some reaction and that I would get some flak for it. I've no problems with that. I finished a game and then suddenly my mind started to wander and I decided to put those thoughts in a thread.

I must make a point though. I am not trying to say that Europeans haven't caused a lot of wrong in the world through the terrible processes of colonisation, but I was playing a game where Indians had been forced to leave their land and all for these horrid invaders who really had no right to the land. I then made a comparison with what Israel is doing to Palestine today. They are gradually stealing land from an indigenous population and the world just sits and watches. We went to war for WMD and yet we ignore the very same process that helped to create America today. I think part of that is a historical and current belief that the native Indians were primitive and that Arab lives simply aren't worth as much as Jewish lives.

I don't think that is a particularly controversial thing to say, and is all backed up by government action and policy.

Well I don't really have much to say, but a chance to wind Miles up cannot be ignored.

First off, you say the Jews took the land from its owners. They didn't. The people who lived there did not own the land. It was originally a territory of the Ottaman Empire and was then taken over by the British, who set up a mandate to legally give the land to the Jews. They have MORE of a legitimate claim to their land then virtually any other nation as it was ratified in a court of law

Second there were no indigenous people. There never was an indigenous Palestine. They comprise many races, Greek, Egyptain, Syrian, Bosnian ,Druzes etc. In fact in 1920 over 50 different languages were being spoken in Palestine.

Thirdly, the Jews didn't expel the Palestinians the Arabs did! They wanted them out of the way so they wouldn't interfere with their Jew slaughterings.

Unfortunately that war didn't go so well for the Arabs and they lost horribly. The Jews understandably were rather distrusting of their neighbours from that point on.

That's the thing with colonialists. Who were the British to say that the land wasn't actually owned by those Palestinians? To anybody who thinks America is the one that I am always picking on, believe me, Britain with it's colonialist past, is a close number 2!
The people that lived there prior to Israel being created by the UN were the people that had lived there for generation after generation and I regard those as the indigenous population.

Anyway, I know the history of the region Bilbo. It is a sordid and messy one. But regardless, what we have right now is illegal settlement building on territories that are not Israel's. Step by step what remains of Palestine is being taken. Or should I say brick by brick? There is no attempt at peace and this is likely going to continue.

It is criminal and all existing settlements should be eradicated.

[Kev]

I had a feeling that this thread would spark some reaction and that I would get some flak for it. I've no problems with that. I finished a game and then suddenly my mind started to wander and I decided to put those thoughts in a thread.

I must make a point though. I am not trying to say that Europeans haven't caused a lot of wrong in the world through the terrible processes of colonisation, but I was playing a game where Indians had been forced to leave their land and all for these horrid invaders who really had no right to the land. I then made a comparison with what Israel is doing to Palestine today. They are gradually stealing land from an indigenous population and the world just sits and watches. We went to war for WMD and yet we ignore the very same process that helped to create America today. I think part of that is a historical and current belief that the native Indians were primitive and that Arab lives simply aren't worth as much as Jewish lives.

I don't think that is a particularly controversial thing to say, and is all backed up by government action and policy.

Well I don't really have much to say, but a chance to wind Miles up cannot be ignored.

First off, you say the Jews took the land from its owners. They didn't. The people who lived there did not own the land. It was originally a territory of the Ottaman Empire and was then taken over by the British, who set up a mandate to legally give the land to the Jews. They have MORE of a legitimate claim to their land then virtually any other nation as it was ratified in a court of law

Second there were no indigenous people. There never was an indigenous Palestine. They comprise many races, Greek, Egyptain, Syrian, Bosnian ,Druzes etc. In fact in 1920 over 50 different languages were being spoken in Palestine.

Thirdly, the Jews didn't expel the Palestinians the Arabs did! They wanted them out of the way so they wouldn't interfere with their Jew slaughterings.

Unfortunately that war didn't go so well for the Arabs and they lost horribly. The Jews understandably were rather distrusting of their neighbours from that point on.

That's the thing with colonialists. Who were the British to say that the land wasn't actually owned by those Palestinians? To anybody who thinks America is the one that I am always picking on, believe me, Britain with it's colonialist past, is a close number 2!
The people that lived there prior to Israel being created by the UN were the people that had lived there for generation after generation and I regard those as the indigenous population.

Anyway, I know the history of the region Bilbo. It is a sordid and messy one. But regardless, what we have right now is illegal settlement building on territories that are not Israel's. Step by step what remains of Palestine is being taken. Or should I say brick by brick? There is no attempt at peace and this is likely going to continue.

It is criminal and all existing settlements should be eradicated.

When the Jews moved back to Palestine it was virtually a desert. The population was very small. A significant majority of 'indigenous' Palestines actually moved in AFTER the Jews had transformed the landscape and made it habitable.

Your hatred of Jews is bordering on irrational imo and steps very close to anti semitism.

It's clearly not a loss of human life issue with you as the Jewish people have suffered more than any other nation in history down the centuries with holocausts and pogroms an eternal suffering for them. It just seems that Jewish suffering means nothing to you at all and the only people who are truly valuable are those killed by Jews.

China, North Korea, Iran, Russia etc have far far worse track records than Israel yet you never say a thing about them.

When the Israeli soldiers were attacked on the 'love boat' during the flotilla raid and killed some violent, armed thugs in self defence you went mad with rage and demanded justice. Yet when North Korea just casually sunk a South Korean (YOUR OWN COUNTRYMEN FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!) killing 46 people over 5 times as many as died in the Gaza flotilla incident, not a word from you. You simply didn't care, not bothered, only Koreans killing Koreans.

Has the Jews done that you would have probably have to have been banned due to the amount of condemnation threads you would have started.

I can't explain it as anything other than an intense hatred for Jews........

[El Kabong]

Bilbo from DOWNTOWN!

[Gandalf]

I don't hate Jews, so please let's not go back to that one again. As I said before when it comes to current affairs we a dealing with political and business elites. It is typically these people that I am railing against.

The average Jew who was forced to leave Russia and move to Israel due to economic shock treatments is not the person I loathe. But I certainly resent the elite that have built settlements and gone and put him there. It's just wrong.

Okay, maybe I should start a thread on every story that comes up. That's the thing with an internet board. I only post a certain number of threads, so you don't hear my conversations down the pub where I talk about the news and for sure I have spoken about the Cheonan. Just as I have gone on about all sorts of other things, including my issues with Israel. Out of all the threads I have started over the years, only about 2 have been about Israel. And I had a bit of a rant about Yuri Foreman in someone elses thread because I was still annoyed with the flotilla, but that's about it.

I speak about all sorts of things and for sure I have said critical things of China and Iran. If people post a story I am usually there with my views, but for sure no I've certainly not started a thread on Iran.

But anyway, please quit with the anti-semitism brush. It's too easy to use that and it's just not true. A Jew is just a Jew, some of my favorite writers and thinkers are Jewish. I don't purposely avoid them in some mad quest to avoid all things Jewish. Seriously, I just don't think like that. I am no Hitler and you will never see me doing anything daft like defending the holocaust.

[Kev]

I don't hate Jews, so please let's not go back to that one again. As I said before when it comes to current affairs we a dealing with political and business elites. It is typically these people that I am railing against.

The average Jew who was forced to leave Russia and move to Israel due to economic shock treatments is not the person I loathe. But I certainly resent the elite that have built settlements and gone and put him there. It's just wrong.

Okay, maybe I should start a thread on every story that comes up. That's the thing with an internet board. I only post a certain number of threads, so you don't hear my conversations down the pub where I talk about the news and for sure I have spoken about the Cheonan. Just as I have gone on about all sorts of other things, including my issues with Israel. Out of all the threads I have started over the years, only about 2 have been about Israel. And I had a bit of a rant about Yuri Foreman in someone elses thread because I was still annoyed with the flotilla, but that's about it.

I speak about all sorts of things and for sure I have said critical things of China and Iran. If people post a story I am usually there with my views, but for sure no I've certainly not started a thread on Iran.

But anyway, please quit with the anti-semitism brush. It's too easy to use that and it's just not true. A Jew is just a Jew, some of my favorite writers and thinkers are Jewish. I don't purposely avoid them in some mad quest to avoid all things Jewish. Seriously, I just don't think like that. I am no Hitler and you will never see me doing anything daft like defending the holocaust.

It's also too easy to just brush it aside and claim someone is playing the race card (I hate using that phrase). You say you talk about different things down the pub, that means nothing, what matters is what you talk about on here!

Everything relates back to the Jews for you, or America, you can turn literally any topic into an anti Israel, anti American speech. I mean come on, this thread was created because you played Red Dead Redemption and the good ole Wild West reminded you how much you hate the Jews and modern America!

You are obsessed! That bit where you say you had a 'bit of a rant about Yuri Foreman', is the rant where you said you wish for Cotto to smash him so you could see the blood dribbling down his chin because he was Jew rant?

There is no coming back from that Miles. When you get mad your true feelings are revealed.

If Israel killed 100 palestinians next week in an attack on Gaze you would be livid. If Hamas fired a missile that killed 100 Israeli's next week you would say 'well it's wrong but what do you expect from such an oppressed people?' and just condone it.

You are nuts. I say this respectfully of course.

By the way what are your views on Barrack authorising the biggest arms deal in the history of the US, selling $39,000,000 worth of planes to Saudi Arabia to prop up their defences against Iran. They have also promised to keep Israel ahead militarily of all the middle east, so a massive new influx of arms and military aid to Israel must be in the pipeline?

We could be about to see those crazy Iranians get a right Holy Holy kicking

[:::PSL:::]

Yo Miles.

Are you in South Korea, or North Korea? Why don't you focus more on your fucked up neighboring countries first? Start with China or Russia or somethin'.

Wtf man.

[Gandalf]

I don't hate Jews, so please let's not go back to that one again. As I said before when it comes to current affairs we a dealing with political and business elites. It is typically these people that I am railing against.

The average Jew who was forced to leave Russia and move to Israel due to economic shock treatments is not the person I loathe. But I certainly resent the elite that have built settlements and gone and put him there. It's just wrong.

Okay, maybe I should start a thread on every story that comes up. That's the thing with an internet board. I only post a certain number of threads, so you don't hear my conversations down the pub where I talk about the news and for sure I have spoken about the Cheonan. Just as I have gone on about all sorts of other things, including my issues with Israel. Out of all the threads I have started over the years, only about 2 have been about Israel. And I had a bit of a rant about Yuri Foreman in someone elses thread because I was still annoyed with the flotilla, but that's about it.

I speak about all sorts of things and for sure I have said critical things of China and Iran. If people post a story I am usually there with my views, but for sure no I've certainly not started a thread on Iran.

But anyway, please quit with the anti-semitism brush. It's too easy to use that and it's just not true. A Jew is just a Jew, some of my favorite writers and thinkers are Jewish. I don't purposely avoid them in some mad quest to avoid all things Jewish. Seriously, I just don't think like that. I am no Hitler and you will never see me doing anything daft like defending the holocaust.

It's also too easy to just brush it aside and claim someone is playing the race card (I hate using that phrase). You say you talk about different things down the pub, that means nothing, what matters is what you talk about on here!

Everything relates back to the Jews for you, or America, you can turn literally any topic into an anti Israel, anti American speech. I mean come on, this thread was created because you played Red Dead Redemption and the good ole Wild West reminded you how much you hate the Jews and modern America!

You are obsessed! That bit where you say you had a 'bit of a rant about Yuri Foreman', is the rant where you said you wish for Cotto to smash him so you could see the blood dribbling down his chin because he was Jew rant?

There is no coming back from that Miles. When you get mad your true feelings are revealed.

If Israel killed 100 palestinians next week in an attack on Gaze you would be livid. If Hamas fired a missile that killed 100 Israeli's next week you would say 'well it's wrong but what do you expect from such an oppressed people?' and just condone it.

You are nuts. I say this respectfully of course.

By the way what are your views on Barrack authorising the biggest arms deal in the history of the US, selling $39,000,000 worth of planes to Saudi Arabia to prop up their defences against Iran. They have also promised to keep Israel ahead militarily of all the middle east, so a massive new influx of arms and military aid to Israel must be in the pipeline?

We could be about to see those crazy Iranians get a right Holy Holy kicking

Well even going on what I say here, I really don't think there is enough to label me an anti semite. For sure I can be labelled a pretty severe critic of the Israeli elite and the continued repression of the Palestinians, but as an outright hater of Jews? I don't think so and I am not.

The Foreman rant was right after the Flotilla attack so I blame being a bit drunk and angry as the cause of that. Obviously I retracted those views immediately after. In a sound frame of mind I wouldn't think that.

Everything doesn't come back down to the Jews. It usually always comes down to America. As America's pet Israel invariably comes along for the ride. As a nation I find it's treatment of the Arabs to be shocking and unnacceptable. It isn't anti-semitic to come to that conclusion.

I will respond to your point about the Nobel Peace Prize winner authorising a massive sale of arms tomorrow as it is time for bed. I think you might have a rough idea where some of my thoughts might be going with that anyway.

[El Kabong]

We forgive you Mel....I mean miles

[Youngblood]

The Foreman rant was right after the Flotilla attack so I blame being a bit drunk and angry as the cause of that. Obviously I retracted those views immediately after. In a sound frame of mind I wouldn't think that.

sounds familiar, lemme think...



lol jkin miles. love you man.

[:::PSL:::]

Uh-oh...

What is this?.. (Photos) Amir Khan linked to prostitute - National International Sports | Examiner.com

[Gandalf]

Right, back onto that issue of arms sales.

Well, of course I dissaprove. In fact it makes my blood boil that the US, Britain and Israel continue to be the amongst the top nations exporting terror. There is no other way to look at it. We build weapons to sell on to other nations at a profit and then sit and watch whilst those weapons are used to maim and kill innocent people. If the country is buying from us then that means they are on our side and we can typically turn a blind eye to how the weapons are being used. Rather than Al Quaeda being regarded as the leading terrorist threat, we should regard our countries as the leading exporters of terror. And then of course we have to evaluate our roles in conflicts over the last 40 years and then you come to the conclusion that we carry out our own mighty share of the killing and turn a blind eye to a lot of the rest (just as long as our interests are not challenged).

The possibility of war with Iran would be a perpetuation of the absurdities started with Iraq and this time I don't think the terror exporting allies would be wise to commit such an act. Obama is a poor president, but I don't know if he is that kamikaze. A lunatic like Sarah Palin is a different story. You reap what you sow as they say, and to invade Iran would see a bankrupt America overstretched once and for all. Hello Rome. And Israel more vulnerable that ever. And believe it or not, I don't actually want to see the destruction of Israel. I would just like all existing settlements to be abolished and for all borders to go back to the 1967 lines and then build two states that learn to coexist.

Obama decided that his next great mission was to create a nuclear free middle east. Well of course that meant ignoring the white elephant in the room....Israel. If you want a nuclear free middle east then Israel HAS to be part of that. However, there is no room for duscussion from America about that. Iran is a terrible regime, but as we saw in Iraq you DO need a deterrent. Israel has it's deterrent and has shown itself to be a rogue state far more dangerous than Iran. Israel tried to sell nuclear technology to a pariah state in apartheid SOuth Africa. Furthermore Israel has repeatedly commited war crimes in the region. This is a country that is allowed to have a deterrent and all discussion about dismantling that deterrent must cease? Meanwhile war drums are being built up because Iran knows it is under threat seeks a deterrent of it's own. Sheer hypocrisy. Of course, Israel is our ally and will do dirty things on our behalf. Iran simply doesn't like us or want to act like a subservient partner...they've gotta go.