Ortiz v Murray could be on the Khan v Maidana undercard!

[erics44]

Name me a pressure fighter who has moved up successfully through different weightclasses? Just to be clear I'm talking about a guy who breaks opponents down with his will & workrate (which is what Murray generally does) rather than any particular physical qualities. Hatton moved up & picked up an alphabet at 147, but that's about it. I'll give you one.

There is only one guy who has been a pressure fighter & jumped numerous weightclasses & that is Henry Armstrong. No one before or since has really managed it & John Murray is no Henry Armstrong. You could maybe make an argument for Jake LaMotta, but he was always a big welterweight who grew into the middleweight he was & was more comfortable for it.

Again & this is no disrespect to Murray but those are two genuinely great fighters who were also much stronger punchers. Fair enough you think that Murray could beat Ortiz but it took you nearly 5 pages to offer up that you think Murray's pressure would break him, all the while acting like you had some insight that no one else had thought of. No one is 'upset' by your comments, but if your going to position yourself somewhere in a debate you have to give something to back up your argument.

page 1 post 9 (i think its my second post on the thread)

ill have a think about fighters moving up the weights

will england win the next euros?

[erics44]

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.

you keep saying my knowledge of murray is crap

the only reason you have given me is coz i said he hasnt come close to loosing and the evidence is the ice cream man fight, you said he was gifted a win, he wasnt, it was close but he deserved to win and if that is the closest he has come to loosing he hasnt come close to loosing

i saw that fight on tv when it happened and i didnt think he lost then and i dont now

you keep saying murray has no chance at world level, well i think this is more evidence that my knowledge of murray is better than yours

[JazMerkin]

Name me a pressure fighter who has moved up successfully through different weightclasses? Just to be clear I'm talking about a guy who breaks opponents down with his will & workrate (which is what Murray generally does) rather than any particular physical qualities. Hatton moved up & picked up an alphabet at 147, but that's about it. I'll give you one.

There is only one guy who has been a pressure fighter & jumped numerous weightclasses & that is Henry Armstrong. No one before or since has really managed it & John Murray is no Henry Armstrong. You could maybe make an argument for Jake LaMotta, but he was always a big welterweight who grew into the middleweight he was & was more comfortable for it.

Again & this is no disrespect to Murray but those are two genuinely great fighters who were also much stronger punchers. Fair enough you think that Murray could beat Ortiz but it took you nearly 5 pages to offer up that you think Murray's pressure would break him, all the while acting like you had some insight that no one else had thought of. No one is 'upset' by your comments, but if your going to position yourself somewhere in a debate you have to give something to back up your argument.

page 1 post 9 (i think its my second post on the thread)

ill have a think about fighters moving up the weights

will england win the next euros?

I reckon there's a good chance if we shift some of the older dead wood & bring through more of the young players. We look like we might have a genuinely world class keeper coming through in Hart, so I think winning the Euros is definitely a possibility, although right now I'd say the Germans, Dutch & the Spanish would be the favourites. A lot depends on how the youngsters come on in the next 2 seasons.

I've gone back & read your post. I don't think it really justifies it, but fair enough I didn't see that so I'll retract that last comment.

[skel1983]

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.

you keep saying my knowledge of murray is crap

the only reason you have given me is coz i said he hasnt come close to loosing and the evidence is the ice cream man fight, you said he was gifted a win, he wasnt, it was close but he deserved to win and if that is the closest he has come to loosing he hasnt come close to loosing

i saw that fight on tv when it happened and i didnt think he lost then and i dont now

you keep saying murray has no chance at world level, well i think this is more evidence that my knowledge of murray is better than yours

So in the space of 24 hours you have gone from you might watch the fight with the Ice Cream man, to now saying you saw it live on tv? Which one is it?

[JazMerkin]

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.

you keep saying my knowledge of murray is crap

the only reason you have given me is coz i said he hasnt come close to loosing and the evidence is the ice cream man fight, you said he was gifted a win, he wasnt, it was close but he deserved to win and if that is the closest he has come to loosing he hasnt come close to loosing

i saw that fight on tv when it happened and i didnt think he lost then and i dont now

you keep saying murray has no chance at world level, well i think this is more evidence that my knowledge of murray is better than yours

So in the space of 24 hours you have gone from you might watch the figh with the Ice Cream man, to now saying you saw it live on tv? Which one is it?

Uh-oh, Skel has got Eric on the ropes!

[skel1983]

Eric mate you have every right to think he has a chance at world level that is fair enough and as this thread has gone on you have put some good points across and stood your corner well, so we can agree to disagree.

[erics44]

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.

you keep saying my knowledge of murray is crap

the only reason you have given me is coz i said he hasnt come close to loosing and the evidence is the ice cream man fight, you said he was gifted a win, he wasnt, it was close but he deserved to win and if that is the closest he has come to loosing he hasnt come close to loosing

i saw that fight on tv when it happened and i didnt think he lost then and i dont now

you keep saying murray has no chance at world level, well i think this is more evidence that my knowledge of murray is better than yours

So in the space of 24 hours you have gone from you might watch the figh with the Ice Cream man, to now saying you saw it live on tv? Which one is it?

i didnt recognise the name dude, having watched it again i remembered the cut and having checked further i realised it was on the undercard of the witter bradley fight which i watched round my mate Johns (not john murray another john)

look man, the further this thread continues the further you are fighting a loosing battle, murray has a chance at world level of that there is no doubt, and i wouldnt say my knowledge of john murray is at the pinacle but i have seen enough of his fights to know that he has a chance

you saying he doesnt have a chance is pretty far off the mark

[skel1983]

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.

you keep saying my knowledge of murray is crap

the only reason you have given me is coz i said he hasnt come close to loosing and the evidence is the ice cream man fight, you said he was gifted a win, he wasnt, it was close but he deserved to win and if that is the closest he has come to loosing he hasnt come close to loosing

i saw that fight on tv when it happened and i didnt think he lost then and i dont now

you keep saying murray has no chance at world level, well i think this is more evidence that my knowledge of murray is better than yours

So in the space of 24 hours you have gone from you might watch the figh with the Ice Cream man, to now saying you saw it live on tv? Which one is it?

i didnt recognise the name dude, having watched it again i remembered the cut and having checked further i realised it was on the undercard of the witter bradley fight which i watched round my mate Johns (not john murray another john)

look man, the further this thread continues the further you are fighting a loosing battle, murray has a chance at world level of that there is no doubt, and i wouldnt say my knowledge of john murray is at the pinacle but i have seen enough of his fights to know that he has a chance

you saying he doesnt have a chance is pretty far off the mark

Says the guy who is fighting off about 5 other people who also have the same idea as me.

Now I am saying he would be took apart by the likes of Ortiz and would beat by the names I have mentioned in this thread, JMM/Diaz/Rios/Katsidis. For me he has no chance v these guys better chance v Rios and Diaz but still slim.

Soto is his best bet and that's the avenue I would take as he is number 1 or 2 with the WBC, still again he would be an outsider in that fight, so at this moment in time for me he won't win anything at world level with them guys about, best thing for him would be to fight Mitchell.

[erics44]

Says the guy who is fighting off about 5 other people who also have the same idea as me.

Now I am saying he would be took apart by the likes of Ortiz and would beat by the names I have mentioned in this thread, JMM/Diaz/Rios/Katsidis. For me he has no chance v these guys better chance v Rios and Diaz but still slim.

Soto is his best bet and that's the avenue I would take as he is number 1 or 2 with the WBC, still again he would be an outsider in that fight, so at this moment in time for me he won't win anything at world level with them guys about, best thing for him would be to fight Mitchell.

on another thread i was fighting off more than 5 who said hattons record is crap

so it doesnt really mean much

[rjj tszyu]

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.

you keep saying my knowledge of murray is crap

the only reason you have given me is coz i said he hasnt come close to loosing and the evidence is the ice cream man fight, you said he was gifted a win, he wasnt, it was close but he deserved to win and if that is the closest he has come to loosing he hasnt come close to loosing

i saw that fight on tv when it happened and i didnt think he lost then and i dont now

you keep saying murray has no chance at world level, well i think this is more evidence that my knowledge of murray is better than yours

So in the space of 24 hours you have gone from you might watch the figh with the Ice Cream man, to now saying you saw it live on tv? Which one is it?

i didnt recognise the name dude, having watched it again i remembered the cut and having checked further i realised it was on the undercard of the witter bradley fight which i watched round my mate Johns (not john murray another john)

look man, the further this thread continues the further you are fighting a loosing battle, murray has a chance at world level of that there is no doubt, and i wouldnt say my knowledge of john murray is at the pinacle but i have seen enough of his fights to know that he has a chance

you saying he doesnt have a chance is pretty far off the mark

I suppose it depends how deep you mean by World level. If by that you mean other contenders at Lightweight or Light welter (as Ortiz is) then maybe he does have a chance (although I do think Ortiz beats him). But if you start looking at the likes of Marquez and Katsidis at lightweight and Khan, Maidana and Bradley at Light Welter then I think they are a class above Murray and he would be schooled in a similar fashion to what Kevin Mitchell was by Katsidis.

In fact that for me would be the ideal fight for both men now (Mitchell and Murray), to see where both men are in their careers. I think Murray would take Mitchell in a very hard fought battle!