Now some time has passed.. Your final vote on Pac's refusal...

[ono]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

[erics44]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

dude, people do build lean muscle but not at a very fast rate and the bit of my text you have highlighted is absolutely true

even those on steriods dont build lean muscle for most of the year, they bulk like nattys because thats the best way to add muscle

man, i am right sorry

and back to pac, 15lbs in 4 years isnt unrealistic, 8000 calories a day is pretty far fetched especially without putting on any fat

i am eating 3500 - 4500 (at a push) at the minute, 5-6 meals a day all clean high calories meals, i am 16 stone (a lot bigger than pac), that is including the best meal replacement/weight gain suppliments - it very very difficult to keep it going, i have to have a day off a week where i eat around 2500 cals, some days i am almost making myself sick

I train hard, i am gaining a lot of fat as well as muscle (hopefully)

what you are suggesting pac has done, is pretty high in the sky

[ono]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

dude, people do build lean muscle but not at a very fast rate and the bit of my text you have highlighted is absolutely true

even those on steriods dont build lean muscle for most of the year, they bulk like nattys because thats the best way to add muscle

man, i am right sorry

and back to pac, 15lbs in 4 years isnt unrealistic, 8000 calories a day is pretty far fetched especially without putting on any fat

i am eating 3500 - 4500 (at a push) at the minute, 5-6 meals a day all clean high calories meals, i am 16 stone (a lot bigger than pac), that is including the best meal replacement/weight gain suppliments - it very very difficult to keep it going, i have to have a day off a week where i eat around 2500 cals, some days i am almost making myself sick

I train hard, i am gaining a lot of fat as well as muscle (hopefully)

what you are suggesting pac has done, is pretty high in the sky

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

[:::PSL:::]

It amaze me when people judge someone just by their physical appearance. Do you think by taking PEDs you can be good as Manny overnight? Lol. Pacquiao’s skills constantly being undermined. Pacquiao like other great athletes is a dedicated student of his respective sport who continues to hone his skills despite the level of success he’s reached. It's the work ethic combined with Roach’s guidance, he’s able to transform into a more complete boxer and consequently attained the level of success that many did not expect from him.

Many have mentioned the names of Mosley, Bonds, Vargas and and more in relation to Pacquiao. The difference is there was no real public outcry about them using steroids until evidence was found linking them to it. So far, no evidence whatsoever about the use of steroids has ever been associated to Pacquiao.

Pacquiao since his quest for world championships had constantly encountered the problem of maintaining weight since he started out very young. He lost his first world title, by weight gain and burned himself reducing weight. When you get weight drained like that, then you have no choice but to move up higher division - as simple as that - just like what he did in '99 when he was 112 and '08 when he was 130.

Btw Dizaster. For the record, Pac did not refuse the blood testing. Its the timing that they could not agree on.

[ross]

This is another thing that makes me laugh. people who say "yeah but Pacquiao has only gained 15lb" or what ever of muscle.

Ok Manny started out small but he was basically just a child still. I would say though that at 24 he was a mature grown man and he was fighting at 120lb, Super Bantam. He has put on 25lb of lean mass/muscle since then and no one could cut that much natural lean mass and be competetive in a boxing match.

He has put on 25lb or 20% of his natural body weight over the last 7 years!!

That would be like an average man of 12 stone going up to 14 and a half stone. Now with ilegal substances that is nothing fantastic although still good but we are trying to imagine a fighter who is constantly training and burning energy putting this mass on and remaining competetive.

For a start, I know little about body building but I do know that it would be very hard for Manny to put that size on because of all the boxing training. He isnt a body builder that is aiming to put muscle on. He isnt doing heavy weights and taking long rests and eating shed loads to allow extra calories for the muscles to grow.

He is a fighter whos training and aims are to stay low in body fat and high in stamina and fitness. I just find it unbelievable that he can grow so much without help.

[skel1983]

This is another thing that makes me laugh. people who say "yeah but Pacquiao has only gained 15lb" or what ever of muscle.

Ok Manny started out small but he was basically just a child still. I would say though that at 24 he was a mature grown man and he was fighting at 120lb, Super Bantam. He has put on 25lb of lean mass/muscle since then and no one could cut that much natural lean mass and be competetive in a boxing match.

He has put on 25lb or 20% of his natural body weight over the last 7 years!!

That would be like an average man of 12 stone going up to 14 and a half stone. Now with ilegal substances that is nothing fantastic although still good but we are trying to imagine a fighter who is constantly training and burning energy putting this mass on and remaining competetive.

For a start, I know little about body building but I do know that it would be very hard for Manny to put that size on because of all the boxing training. He isnt a body builder that is aiming to put muscle on. He isnt doing heavy weights and taking long rests and eating shed loads to allow extra calories for the muscles to grow.

He is a fighter whos training and aims are to stay low in body fat and high in stamina and fitness. I just find it unbelievable that he can grow so much without help.

He hasn't put that amount on you need to account the weight on fight night when hydrated rather than the weigh in, so in them seven years he has actually put on around 15lbs which is nothing amazing in truth.

[erics44]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

[ono]

This is another thing that makes me laugh. people who say "yeah but Pacquiao has only gained 15lb" or what ever of muscle.

Ok Manny started out small but he was basically just a child still. I would say though that at 24 he was a mature grown man and he was fighting at 120lb, Super Bantam. He has put on 25lb of lean mass/muscle since then and no one could cut that much natural lean mass and be competetive in a boxing match.

He has put on 25lb or 20% of his natural body weight over the last 7 years!!

That would be like an average man of 12 stone going up to 14 and a half stone. Now with ilegal substances that is nothing fantastic although still good but we are trying to imagine a fighter who is constantly training and burning energy putting this mass on and remaining competetive.

For a start, I know little about body building but I do know that it would be very hard for Manny to put that size on because of all the boxing training. He isnt a body builder that is aiming to put muscle on. He isnt doing heavy weights and taking long rests and eating shed loads to allow extra calories for the muscles to grow.

He is a fighter whos training and aims are to stay low in body fat and high in stamina and fitness. I just find it unbelievable that he can grow so much without help.

Of course you can. You just need to adapt the nutrition to surpass the energy requirements. Because Pacquio's enery requirements are so high, his nutritional needs will also be high - around 8,000 calories per day in his case, which is similar to Michael Phelps by the way - another extremely lean top level athlete.

The fact that he was fighting at Bantamweight doesn't actually have anything to do with that being his natural weight. It's very possible that as a younger fighter he was under-nutritioned or malnourished in an athletic sense. You can bet your bottom dollar he didn't have a 8,000 calorie a day plan when he was in his early 20's.

When he moved up to Super featherweight, his actual fight night weight was around 141lbs. At that point, nobody was suspicous about anything. Since then, he may have moved up several divisions, but his actual weight come fight night has only increased by around 8 or 9 lbs.

His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight isn't a good indicator, because it's impossible to tell how empty his glycogen stores are or how dehydrated he is. That can account for quite a bit of weight. You ever see those fad diets where daft women claim they've lost a stone in 2 weeks? That's water and carbohydrate weight gone, from cutting out certain foods. Manny's weigh in weight can give a false reading in terms of what his natural weight actually is, because down at the lower weights where weight-making will have been more of a challenge, he will have depleted himself of water and muscle glycogen much more than he will have to do at the higher weights.

[JazMerkin]

Bodybuilding & boxing have very different needs so putting on 'bulk' for either is a very different proposition. For example, most bodybuilders tend to burn all the fat that they can for events, whereas as a boxer you want to have some fat to fall back on because otherwise you become too weak. What Manny Pacquiao has done physically is different, but that alone is not enough to judge him. The only thing in that regard that sticks out a bit for me is that his power appeared to plateau a bit at 130, yet since moving up it's that much more explosive. Even with the lack of drain, it's still odd that he looks a more explosive puncher (not power, guys like Hearns & Robinson have carried the power up, but they've looked to lose that explosiveness with it). But, to me, that is no indicator of guilt.

What does make me doubt him is the tests. It's the fact he wanted notifications of when the tests would be. PSL's point about the PBF-Mosley testing stopping 18 days before is neither here nor there. The point was the fighters knew they could be tested & were probably expecting it. The thing that really makes me doubt it is what I hear from people in the sport themselves. What guys even very close to Pac say privately is very different from what they say publically.

But, they'll make the fight next year & this will all be forgotten.

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.

[Mar]

.....Pac and his camp were all up to something, they all are. He's no worse than anyone else. Hell people know margarito cheated and look what's it's gotten him. Sadley this sport is full of crooks and shady people more than any other sport. From the hot dog guy at the arena to the media who report lies just as quick sometimes quicker than the truth to the promoters and tv companies who could care less who fights, wins or looses as long as they get paid. With or without drugs pac wouldn't beat floyd and that's just my opinion anyway. And floyd is no better he bends the rules if not breaks them along with the rest he just hasn't really gotten caught yet.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.

Light Heavy or Heavy?

[Hornfinger]

http://www.usada.org/sample-collecti...ponsibilities/

Read this page including the 'Note' at the bottom. That is the final word and there is nothing left to say on it.

Travis Tygart believe that EPO's and HGH can be flushed out from the system within five days and that a cheater if not blood tested within a week can escape being caught even if he took the blood test immediately after the fight. So why USADA stopped taking blood from Shane and Floyd 18 days before they fight?

They didn't. there was no offical 18 day cut off.

But I do agree with what you have said. EPO and HGH can be flushed out very easily and thats why urine testing is aboslutely useless. It detects fuck all of modern enhancers.

[skel1983]

http://www.usada.org/sample-collecti...ponsibilities/

Read this page including the 'Note' at the bottom. That is the final word and there is nothing left to say on it.

Travis Tygart believe that EPO's and HGH can be flushed out from the system within five days and that a cheater if not blood tested within a week can escape being caught even if he took the blood test immediately after the fight. So why USADA stopped taking blood from Shane and Floyd 18 days before they fight?

They didn't. there was no offical 18 day cut off.

But I do agree with what you have said. EPO and HGH can be flushed out very easily and thats why urine testing is aboslutely useless. It detects fuck all of modern enhancers.

Welcome back.

[erics44]

Bodybuilding & boxing have very different needs so putting on 'bulk' for either is a very different proposition. For example, most bodybuilders tend to burn all the fat that they can for events, whereas as a boxer you want to have some fat to fall back on because otherwise you become too weak. What Manny Pacquiao has done physically is different, but that alone is not enough to judge him. The only thing in that regard that sticks out a bit for me is that his power appeared to plateau a bit at 130, yet since moving up it's that much more explosive. Even with the lack of drain, it's still odd that he looks a more explosive puncher (not power, guys like Hearns & Robinson have carried the power up, but they've looked to lose that explosiveness with it). But, to me, that is no indicator of guilt.

What does make me doubt him is the tests. It's the fact he wanted notifications of when the tests would be. PSL's point about the PBF-Mosley testing stopping 18 days before is neither here nor there. The point was the fighters knew they could be tested & were probably expecting it. The thing that really makes me doubt it is what I hear from people in the sport themselves. What guys even very close to Pac say privately is very different from what they say publically.

But, they'll make the fight next year & this will all be forgotten.

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.

you are right dude, bodybuilding and boxing are different with different goals

but bodybuilders and boxers are both human and have the same physiology or anatomy or what ever you want to call it

the argument is that pac has put on a lot of lean muscle (im not saying he has or he hasnt, thats just what we are discussing) so if a bodybuilder (who is dedicated to putting on muscle) cant achieve that without roids why should boxer be able to?

[JazMerkin]

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.

Light Heavy or Heavy?

Both

I've heard that he started taking things after the McCallum & first Griffin fights. Again, this might just be the kind of gossip you hear about fighters, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I do think the time he got caught, it probably was to do with the ripped fuel. No way would Jones be that dumb to take something that's going to get him caught. Then again he did carry on boxing after getting battered by Tarver/Johnson/Calzaghe & Green.