Quote Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
Well I'm sorry CFH, but I got more than a tad peeved over a Canadian making a moral judgment of what an American President did, especially when given the results (ending World War II fast and with fewer casualties). I usually reserve my name calling for humorous purposes (even if you aren't laughing) but when you look back over Canada's history (and it is a fine one) they were never in the position that the US or England have been in and so they have never had to answer for their responsibilities the way the US and England have. That doesn't mean you don't get an opinion on the matter at all but you absolutely have to put yourself and your country in that situation, if you think losing 200,000 soldiers is better than losing 80,000 people altogether including civilians then that's fine, that's your opinion. I think it's fine to Monday Morning Quarterback all you want but to take a shot at a US President's morals in a time of war where he was faced with perhaps losing the war by taking Japan by force (either Japan pushes us back or they get the bomb and use it against us) or ending it quickly albeit with a lot of civilian casualties by dropping 2 bombs (and unbeknownst to him causing destruction with the fallout which no one expected/knew of at the time) then you have to say he was faced with 2 tough choices, he did what was right for his country and in the end it benefitted both countries because fewer Americans died AND fewer Japanese died. It was never Truman's intent to destroy that many civilians AND there were US POW's held there and some of them died as well and of course that is an unintended consequence.

Harry Truman was faced with 2 very piss poor options that could have had very grave outcomes but being the LEADER he was, he took a stand, he made a choice, and he stuck by it. He shouldn't be considered brave and noble for dropping the bombs but to be able to make the decision and stick by it was a VERY tough thing to do and I admire that he had the guts to make the call and not to flip flop over it.

People shouldn't agree with me on my opinion but they should agree with me about the actual history because it's correct.
#1 We did warn Japan
#2 We didn't know about the fallout
#3 We didn't intend to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people
#4 We DID want to end the war and save the lives of our soldiers
#5 We DID also save Japanese lives

If we're looking at the moral aspect of this event and whether or not Truman is a war criminal then how the hell could you make a case against him knowing what the facts were?? And if you can make a war criminal of Truman then why not FDR and Chruchill?
First of all, I never made any assertions that Truman was a war criminal or that he shouldn't have dropped the bomb, only that I've heard well-respected historians make those statements with reasonable supporting positions, so I'm not going to bother addressing any of those points.

Second, you essentially contradicted yourself by saying Canadians, and to extend your logic, anyone who's not a citizen of a country that is or once was a super-power (Canada was once part of England, we didn't really break 100% free until 1981, but we'll just ignore that fact for now), should not make moral judgements about an American President. You then proceed to make judgements about the abilities of Canadians to put themselves in the position of others when considering their actions. Why not? People from differently nations makes all sorts of justifiable claims about indidivuals from other nations all the time. By you logic, Americans shouldn't be able to make moral judgements about anyone who is not American. That's so fucking absurd I don't even know how to address it.

And don't tell me about the "fine" history of my country, because you don't know jack fucking shit about it beyond what you could read on wikipedia. Canada has done some terrible things and had to answer for them; we instituted a racial, assimilatory (with near-genocidal implications) policy against the First Nations people which is every bit as terrible as aparthied and other similar policies.

Finally, I clearly stated that by using the logic (I know that's pretty much a foreign term to you) applied by CGM that many other leaders (including Churchill, FDR, Mackenzie etc. etc. etc.) could be considering war criminals.