Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo View Post
Quote Originally Posted by miles View Post
I said I wouldn't be starting threads on controversial issues for a while (Ralph Nader and my body don't count) so I wasn't going to go and start a thread on that and regardless today is my busy day so my posting time is limited. There will be no thread starting from me today. Anyway, of course Britain was to blame and we had absolutely no right to be in Northern Ireland. Show me a thread about it and of course my views would be laid out bare.

You keep on harking back to the flotilla which we have more than covered. You have today gone into the creation of Israel a little which we have dicussed. What about the numerous and many violations commited by the Israeli's?

How about...

1. Forging international passports to commit international terrorism?
2. Destroying Palestinian farmland and infrastructure?
3. Denying planning permission for Palestinians in Israel?
4. Trying to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa?
5. Building settlements on illegally obtained lands?
6. The denial of sufficient aid shipments?
7. The denial of Gazan rights to export?
8. The routine murder of Palestinians by Israeli forces

The list could probably go beyond 20 if I could be bothered.

When I asked you about your background reading I wasn't asking you about a report on the flotilla. I was asking you about your actual knowledge of Israeli acts of aggression and resistance to peace. Nameless already recommended Finkelstein to you. The other name I would add is Chomsky. It sounds to me like you have absorbed a whole heap of Dershowitz, Israeli state propaganda and the Bible and put them into a great big melting pot. If this is how you really feel on the issue then fair enough, but if you haven't read more then you should. Likewise, I'm always open for intelligent suggestions too.
I guess this is the thread you meant. Fair enough I shall look when I have time.

I don't expect the Israeli's to be blameless in every area though, that is unrealistic of an nation including the ones we live in.

The thing is you seem to have a hatred of Isreal that exceeds every other nation on this earth, in fact you think they are the greatest threat to world peace, which to me is utterly ridiculous.

They have no aggressive intentions, they are not after military conquests or land expansion. On the contrary they are smallest nation in size in the whole middle east. They are not a tryanny or run by an evil dictator. They don't deny citizenship to any of its people, including Arabs. They don't put homosexuals to death, they don't stone women adultresses, they don't terror bomb our lands. But to you they are the worst nation on the earth because they are blockading a regime that until the blockade was shelling them with 100 rockets per day.

If you can admit that Israel, whilst having faults, are still a valuable people who have contributed much to the world, who have a vibrant healthy democracry and who treat it's citizens well, than I will concede they may have sometimes got it wrong and acted badly.

It's the irrational hatred that you and Laing have that I can't understand.

There are so many atrocities being committed all the time around the world by so many countries, but to you the Jews are worst of all. This I just cannot agree with, not even a little.
I have an extreme dislike for most elites and Israeli elites are no different. The elites I have the biggest issues with are planted firmly in Washington. The US is a far bigger terrorist state than Israel and I regard Obama and most other presidents as war criminals. Of course they will never be tried as such and that's the way the power game goes. The UK is another despicable country with a history of attrocities. The thing with Israel is that it is currently on a very hot streak of despicable form and that is why it has my ire. It is only natural that all of these countries are allies.

Stop talking about 'the Jews' Bilbo and let's start referring to them as the 'elites'. I couldn't care less if they are Arab, Jew, Christian or zoo gorilla, but if the elites amongst any of them are causing problems then I will observe and potentially comment. I don't hate 'the Jews' and I am quite content with the existence of Israel, but it would be nice if the elite in Israel would simply move away from the draconian policies that have led to the current state of revulsion many are now beginning to feel about it. It is not the citizens within a country that one loathes it is the attitudes and policies of the elite. Most Israeli's are just living their lives and are no different to people in other countries, I harbour no resentment to such people. But I do resent an elite who deny Arabs living within Israeli borders planning permission and the same access to rights as other Jewish citizens. That's how apartheid comes about. A class system based upon ethnicity and religion. That's not cool. Furthermore, If they have no expansionist desires then they should push for a two state solution and allow Palestinians to control all of their own resources without fear of any consequences. Ever wondered why they resist this?

Even now after agreeing to reduce the blockage, aid agencies are saying it goes nowhere near far enough. Seems like even agreeing to a non independant enquiry is not enough to make the elite half way civilised. It's give and take and with the Israeli elite it is take, take, take and throw a little bone back in return.