sad state of boxing

[Fenster]

What's all this nonsense about the Klitschko(s) dominating any era? Are they a tag team? To combine their accomplishments is ridiculous. They can only be judged individually like every other fighter.

Lets play tag team boxing

Wlad and Vitali vs Lewis and Holyfield or Ali and Frazier

IF Wlad and Vitali weren't brothers they'd have to fight. Which means one of them would have a far weaker resume than the other. Personally I think Vitali would kill Wlad. And Vitali could dominate other periods in heavyweight boxing.

However, Wlad is only on top in this era because he doesn't have to face his sibling. And this is a shit era - Vitali aside.

[Fenster]

I think that was a rude welcome for a first time poster too. All over mistakenly writing 'Sad state of boxing' instead of sad state of the heavyweight division, which is what the post covers, that and hbo blowing smoke up everyones ass which is also true.

Well said Andre.

Getting slaughtered for your first post. What a friendly place this is. Jesus.....

[bigmike]

It is an appalling first post. Vitali Klistschko is an exceptional fighter. He doesn't lose rounds and the only way to beat him is to get lucky with an injury or a cut and that is bound to happen with the big men occasionally. Vitali has destroyed pretty much everyone. He was beating byrd decisively at the point of stoppage and was beating Lewis too.

He is a quality fighter and it is easy to criticise and say what he does wrong, but perhaps his flaws are also some of his strengths. It is isn't as easy to fight him as it seems from an armchair. Every opponent finds that out. Haye would get a pound down. Savagely.

I agree with Miles. The reason most experts believe Vitali is one of most difficult to beat fighter ever is simply because he is.

Anyone who thinks Joe luis, Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey could have beaten up Vitali and Wlad is a moron imo. Yes their size is a huge asset, but it's size combined with meticulous training, always being in perfect condition, discipline and the mastery of a perfect fighting style to match their physcial attributes.

They would rise to the top in any era. They may not be risk takers, and so prefer to break down their opponents slowly and methodically but they are still exceptionally difficult to beat.

How many fighters have lost less rounds in their entire career than Vitali Klitschko?

He's probably lost less rounds in his career than any other fighter of the last 30 years, maybe ever. If you disagree challenge me on it and name somebody.

Add to that the fact that Vitali has the highest ko rating in the history of the HW division. That should speak volume by itself, you can't be talentless and ko around 97% of your opponents, something must be done correctly in there.

I really dont know what to say, You cant say these guys would or could beat a prime foreman, Tyson and the most underrated heavyweight Larry Holmes, who proved he could take a punch, can anyone of you guys or girls say the klitchko's punch harder than ermie shavers, or ron lyle, I watched vitale and maybe im the only one to see, but he was off balance, the hooks and uppercuts he threw were garbage. Lets say Tyson or Foreman or any other fighter had the same fighter in front of them basically a punching bag, The fight wouldnt have gone 2 rounds thats a fact. I understand that some are fans of the brothers but im not. Being the best of the worst is nothing to brag about

[bigmike]

I know your problem with the brothers. They beat anyone at heavyweight because they are too good and you think its the end of the world. But if there is no competition for Klitschko, doesn't mean boxing is in a sorry state. You have Froch vs Ward and Bhop vs Dawson coming for the undisputed titles at 168 and 175. Just accept reality and learn to give respect.

Gotta earn respect

[greynotsoold]

I thought that the skill level in Vitali/Lewis was abysmal. That is one of the fights that hardened my heart against modern boxing, another being Mosley/DeLaHoya I. The HWs are always the least skilled division: that is why, historically, LHWs, even middles, think they can move up and beat them.
The Ks use distance well, and that is a huge part of being a good fighter. If they let a Marciano or a Louis control the range, they'd get eaten alive. The skill involved in such a fight would be the ability to maintain space vs the ability to close it. Dempsey feasted on big slow HWs so who knows. I belive that either K would have an easy night against Ali; he had trouble with a "tall" guy that jabbed (Norton) and either K is much taller and a better jabber (and fighter) than Norton.

[bigmike]

last night after watching vitale stumble around the ring and listen to jim lamply and emanual stewart blow smoke up everyones ass about vitales greatness, i cant help but think how desperate hbo is . My wife who knows nothing about boxing was watching with me and asked who are these guys I said hes the heavy weight champion of the world, she thought i was kidding. maybe we are all kidding ourselves. the klitchko brothers are in my estimation the worst champions to come along ever. They both have limited movement, very basic boxing skills, extremely poor balance, hands low, chin exposed, back straight up. to many other things to mention. It amazes me to think no one is able to exploit these things. Says alot for the sorry state of the division. The david haye fight was even worse, Both of the fighters purses shouldve been given to charity. All the shit talking I thought someone would get killed, what a joke. It doesnt surprise me that MMA has grown in popularity, given the fact that the major networks air these fights, What really pissed me off was comparing vitale with goerge forman are you kidding me, foreman please i wont even respond to that one. Ive been watching fights since the 70s and have seen many great fighters, saad muhamad, salvador sanchez, welfredo gomez,marvin hagler,roberto duran etc. These two guys are not in the same league as these great fighters, The klitchko brothers are scared to engage, scared to get hit afraid to lose. In my opinion until both these guys are willing to lay it on the line youll never know how good{not great} they couldve been. Its way to late for that to happen. The major sanctioning bodies are to blaim as are the networks, The fans want to see manny and mayweather and other fights but itll never happen. To risky for mayweather. I dont know maybe im the only one who thinks this way but I know Im not blind.

Neither Klitschkos are especially talented or exciting to watch, but they are the best out there right now unfortunately. And, unfortunately people have forgotten what really good or great heavyweights look like and so they many believe the Klitschkos are in the top 10 of all time, if not top 5 of all time.

Your opinion wont' be very popular around here, but I agree with you about how insulting it was to compare Vitali to George Foreman.

Also I disagree and think Pac and Mayweather will fight.

I hope your right about pac and mayweather, Would be all time great fight and would cement their legacy.

[Andre]

I thought that the skill level in Vitali/Lewis was abysmal. That is one of the fights that hardened my heart against modern boxing, another being Mosley/DeLaHoya I. The HWs are always the least skilled division: that is why, historically, LHWs, even middles, think they can move up and beat them.
The Ks use distance well, and that is a huge part of being a good fighter. If they let a Marciano or a Louis control the range, they'd get eaten alive. The skill involved in such a fight would be the ability to maintain space vs the ability to close it. Dempsey feasted on big slow HWs so who knows. I belive that either K would have an easy night against Ali; he had trouble with a "tall" guy that jabbed (Norton) and either K is much taller and a better jabber (and fighter) than Norton.

I can see what you are saying with the distance thing.
Im probably a bit biased but I think old school were a tougher mix mentally and in upbringing that would make them step through to their desired distance and stick there, so I dont think long distance controllers would last there either.
Im of the school of thought that Lennox Lewis would have come to the same problem against a younger hungry harder Iron Mike for similar reasons.

[Nameless]

It is an appalling first post. Vitali Klistschko is an exceptional fighter. He doesn't lose rounds and the only way to beat him is to get lucky with an injury or a cut and that is bound to happen with the big men occasionally. Vitali has destroyed pretty much everyone. He was beating byrd decisively at the point of stoppage and was beating Lewis too.

He is a quality fighter and it is easy to criticise and say what he does wrong, but perhaps his flaws are also some of his strengths. It is isn't as easy to fight him as it seems from an armchair. Every opponent finds that out. Haye would get a pound down. Savagely.

I agree with Miles. The reason most experts believe Vitali is one of most difficult to beat fighter ever is simply because he is.

Anyone who thinks Joe luis, Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey could have beaten up Vitali and Wlad is a moron imo. Yes their size is a huge asset, but it's size combined with meticulous training, always being in perfect condition, discipline and the mastery of a perfect fighting style to match their physcial attributes.

They would rise to the top in any era. They may not be risk takers, and so prefer to break down their opponents slowly and methodically but they are still exceptionally difficult to beat.

How many fighters have lost less rounds in their entire career than Vitali Klitschko?

He's probably lost less rounds in his career than any other fighter of the last 30 years, maybe ever. If you disagree challenge me on it and name somebody.

Add to that the fact that Vitali has the highest ko rating in the history of the HW division. That should speak volume by itself, you can't be talentless and ko around 97% of your opponents, something must be done correctly in there.

I really dont know what to say, You cant say these guys would or could beat a prime foreman, Tyson and the most underrated heavyweight Larry Holmes, who proved he could take a punch, can anyone of you guys or girls say the klitchko's punch harder than ermie shavers, or ron lyle, I watched vitale and maybe im the only one to see, but he was off balance, the hooks and uppercuts he threw were garbage. Lets say Tyson or Foreman or any other fighter had the same fighter in front of them basically a punching bag, The fight wouldnt have gone 2 rounds thats a fact. I understand that some are fans of the brothers but im not. Being the best of the worst is nothing to brag about

I never said that Vitali is invincible and is the best there has ever been. What i am saying is that the guy has the potential and the tools to beat almost any HW in history. HE has that potential, which doesn't mean he would have make it, the nuance here is very important. Vitali has a higher KO ratio than Ernie and Lyle, that's a fact. Does it mean that he's stronger then them? Probably not for a "one hit ko", Shavers and Lyle might be both in front of him in that respect. However, his power has still to be way above the average to achieve such feat of ko percentage and in the whole history of the HW, Vitali is perhaps the most talented when it comes down to grinding down your opponent to leave him in rubbles, the KO percentage plays in its favor in that respect.

[greynotsoold]

I thought that the skill level in Vitali/Lewis was abysmal. That is one of the fights that hardened my heart against modern boxing, another being Mosley/DeLaHoya I. The HWs are always the least skilled division: that is why, historically, LHWs, even middles, think they can move up and beat them.
The Ks use distance well, and that is a huge part of being a good fighter. If they let a Marciano or a Louis control the range, they'd get eaten alive. The skill involved in such a fight would be the ability to maintain space vs the ability to close it. Dempsey feasted on big slow HWs so who knows. I belive that either K would have an easy night against Ali; he had trouble with a "tall" guy that jabbed (Norton) and either K is much taller and a better jabber (and fighter) than Norton.

I can see what you are saying with the distance thing.
Im probably a bit biased but I think old school were a tougher mix mentally and in upbringing that would make them step through to their desired distance and stick there, so I dont think long distance controllers would last there either.
Im of the school of thought that Lennox Lewis would have come to the same problem against a younger hungry harder Iron Mike for similar reasons.

Something that struck me in the Lewis/Tyson fight...In the first round, Tyson's best, he landed punches that, years earlier, would've ended that fight. But his legs were shot.
As to the older guys being tougher...Jack Dempsey said that, between fights, he enjoyed being a 'mucker' in mines. That meant shoveling rock into 1 ton ore carts for 10-12 hours per day. That makes for a hard man. (Incidentally, in the town where I live, in the early 1900s, they used to have a variety of 'miner olympics' type contests. One guy shoveled a ton of rock into a cart and then pushed it 50 feet in something like 40 seconds.)

[Mr140]

I really think Vitali has all the tools to beat almost every heavyweight i have seen on tape. Now would he lose some i am sure as for Wald his chin is a big problem but he would win some as well i think. Frasier is a great heavy weight but i would be hard pressed to see him try to take on Vitali because he use his size so well. Lets not forget that Tyson was a pretty good can crusher but when he stepped up in comp he lost ever single time almost, see he having trouble with Vitali using distance and size in there fight. Ali and Holmes i think would be more of problem there reach is close to Vitalis and they are very mobile. As for Foreman Vitali more i watch young Foreman more i think Vitali could make it out of the early rounds and pull off late tko or a ud. Lewis had something other heavyweights in history didn't and that being size and reach to deal with the distance that the Vitali could use against alot of the other heavyweights. I do not feel the heavys are that poor i think Chambers, Admak, and Haye even though i do not like him but he has very good speed and power but the brothers have the size over them and they use it very well.

[piye]

Vit and WLad are better than everyone fighting now' they are not ATG fighters and lose to most ATG fighters.

They don't win just because they are big Dimentriko, Valuev and Tyson Fury are all big and I don't see any of them having the same success as the Klits they win because they are better than everyone fighting at the moment.

But the fact that this is a weak division is beyond doubt! Haye although he lost clearly won three rounds against Wlad and was able to hurt him in the last round. Haye is a good cruiserweight and average heavyweight in all time terms he's 6'3 and fast with a poor chin, Replace him with Ali, foreman or other greats and see what happens 9 times out of ten they stop Wlad whois the better brother.

[Mr140]

Piye quick question how do you place Tyson then because he was in a weak division when he was king and never beat a atg heavyweight in prime. I mean how think he do in atg match ups because his reign was not as long as brothers and he lost almost every time he step in ring with a great. So does that mean he loses to most atg then just like the bothers did or does he some how get a pass. I mean Wald has a bad chin but Vitali can box well use distance well and has one of the best chins to ever be in heavyweight division.

[piye]

Piye quick question how do you place Tyson then because he was in a weak division when he was king and never beat a atg heavyweight in prime. I mean how think he do in atg match ups because his reign was not as long as brothers and he lost almost every time he step in ring with a great. So does that mean he loses to most atg then just like the bothers did or does he some how get a pass. I mean Wald has a bad chin but Vitali can box well use distance well and has one of the best chins to ever be in heavyweight division.

Good question the Larry Holmes on Tyson's resume is better than anybody on either Klit's resume actually I'd still pick that Larry Holmes over the Klits the fact that after this fight he took a prime Holyfield 12 and beat a prime Ray Mercer shows he was a good fighter So He beat a good ATG in Larry Holmes he also beat good fighters like Bruno, Tubbs, Tucker, Ruddock, Berbick and Golota to be honest his resume far exceeds that of the brothers even when combined.

The brothers best wins are Haye, Mercer and Sam Peter which really highlights just how poor their competition is even compared to Tysons.

[Rantcatrat]

I never said that Vitali is invincible and is the best there has ever been. What i am saying is that the guy has the potential and the tools to beat almost any HW in history. HE has that potential, which doesn't mean he would have make it, the nuance here is very important. Vitali has a higher KO ratio than Ernie and Lyle, that's a fact. Does it mean that he's stronger then them? Probably not for a "one hit ko", Shavers and Lyle might be both in front of him in that respect. However, his power has still to be way above the average to achieve such feat of ko percentage and in the whole history of the HW, Vitali is perhaps the most talented when it comes down to grinding down your opponent to leave him in rubbles, the KO percentage plays in its favor in that respect.

This is a spot on post and I agree in its entirety. I wouldn't argue that Vitali would necessarily beat Ali/Holmes/Shavers/Lyle/primeForeman etc. I would argue that he would give any of them a tough fight and if he fought each of them a few times, Vitali would win a few. But, you only really stuck to comparing him to the best of one era, the golden age of heavyweight boxing, the 1970's and early 1980's. How about comparing Vitali to the best heavyweights between 1930 and 1970? I say there is a good argument Vitali comes up on top more often than not in those eras.

[ninjaspy3]

The Klitschko brothers aren't just good because they are big, they are good because they are big AND good. Those two traits are not mutually exclusive. The other big guys around now are simply not good. There may be smaller guys around now who are pretty good, but all other things even, the good bigger man beats the good smaller man.

Now a lot of people like to hate on Mike Tyson because he lost certain fights, but I think it is important to remember that Mike Tyson was 5'11". That is small! Yes, he lost to Holyfield who, although formerly a cruiser weight, seemed to carry the extra weight into the HW division well. You can see that Holyfield makes Tyson look short!

I am just saying that for his size, Tyson was a good small man who eventually lost to bigger men.
Now Tyson Fury, Demintriko, and Helenius are big... but they are not that good... yet.
But it should be noted that the mere fact they are big already gives them the advantage against some of their smaller fighters who may have equal skill.

I assume all this should be obvious but sometimes it seems that some people over look the size advantage. I mean hell, we all know Adamek is a good, tough little fighter, but look at what his lack of size did to him against big men who were actually not good. Sure he won, but the big guy was always in the fight while poor Adamek had to give 100% just to tackle guys so much bigger.

It goes without saying that Vitali would be too much for him.