Well done, Greece!

[Gandalf]

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

Unfortunately, the discussion has been open a long time, and a lot of bad decisions have already been made without consulting the people of Greece to get them to this position. Ask the man on the street there how many times they have been consulted on the previous decisions. Fuck up #1....no. Fuck up #2....no. Fuck up #3....no. etc.

The reason its a smokescreen is that the PM is up against the wall, and whichever way he chooses to go, he's going to get a massive amount of flak that will almost certainly end his political career. He isn't calling a referendum out of a desire to give people a voice. He's not calling it because it is in the name of democracy. He's calling it in a cowardly act to try and avoid making a decision that every other decision he's made without consultation has led to. It is a sleazy sly way of giving the appearance of self-control and democracy, while trying to avoid taking the responsibility.

And in terms of the consequences for Greece, choosing not to repay the loans isn't a cure all. They won't be allowed to stay in the Euro, for a start. Thus they'll be sent back to the Drachma. If we think we've got bad inflation, wait till Greece start seeing their currency devalued, as the balance of imports will be significantly more than the balance of exports. Those Greek corporations that will still want to trade internationally will find it difficult to do so, because their own costs within Greece will be spiralling with double-digit inflation, they'll probably be forced to use the Euro as a defacto currency simply for something stable to trade with, but many of those corporations will either leave Greece, or be seriously struggling themselves.

The fact is that the PM is giving two options to the people that will likely lead to very similar results. A crippled state where austerity is going to become the norm for decades to come.

Fair post with some fair points made. But if a nation is unable to pay back loans then they have no option but to default. It isn't going to be pretty either way, but to finally walk away and attempt to start again without the draconian iron fist of the IMF hanging over them is clearly preferable. When a nation goes broke there is always going to be hardship and it is a choice of hardship on your own terms or hardship on the terms of the IMF. It is time for more nations to snub their noses at the Friedman economics brutality of the IMF.

[X]

I've no sympathy for the Greeks whatsover: they are the ones who voted in successive corrupt governments because it was in their short term interests, it is they who are the ones blatantly dodging tax, it is they who never questioned where the sudden avalanche of money was coming from, and it is they who somehow think that it is not right to repay one's debts.

People get the leaders they deserve, and I - for one - would be happier to see the Greeks live in servitude for a few years, rather than me doing so to repay their stupidity and greed.

So there.

[Gandalf]

I've no sympathy for the Greeks whatsover: they are the ones who voted in successive corrupt governments because it was in their short term interests, it is they who are the ones blatantly dodging tax, it is they who never questioned where the sudden avalanche of money was coming from, and it is they who somehow think that it is not right to repay one's debts.

People get the leaders they deserve, and I - for one - would be happier to see the Greeks live in servitude for a few years, rather than me doing so to repay their stupidity and greed.

So there.

You get the leaders you deserve? What if none of them ever represent the interests of the people themselves?

Does Britain really deserve a Tory/Lib Dem alliance? They didn't vote for it. And yet we have austerity and a refusal to challenge the banking system.

No, I disagree with you. Voting is no longer voting for the leaders you deserve. The fix is well and truly in. There is no alternative.

[X]

Miles, I've heard a lot of people saying Greece's economy has "gone down the shitter". Surely they mean "folded up in a tissue and placed in a small bin next to the shitter."

[X]

Anyway ......... things can only get feta.

[Gandalf]

That is funny, I can't deny that.

[Gandalf]

Sky Sources: Greek Referendum Scrapped - Yahoo!

If so then shame on Greece.

They have seemingly conceded to the IMF demands which will never let them off the hook. Austerity for a good half a century at least.