Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeanz View Post
Five. Your quote You made it clear from the start that you were referring to the Jesus described in the Gospels when you said
“It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.”

I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't say that this means the claims about Jesus divinity must be true. Simply that it is absolutely certain that His early followers believed them to be true. They died willingly for their beliefs. No, that doesn't mean they were not wrong about His divinity, but it shows the level of conviction they had, a convciction that is impossible to explain if Jesus didn't even exist at all.

Are you a Christian or not? if you do not believe Jesus rose again you are not a Christian. The fact is, if Jesus followers were disappointed in his being crucified by the Romans it would be entirely believable that they would make up his resurrection years later to inspire there fellow cult members. This would prove that the "Jesus described in the Gospels" was indeed a fabrication and not an historical figure, we know nothing about the Jesus who may have been an historical figure, only Jesus as described in the Gospels.
What we know about Jesus as described in the Gospels may well then all be fictional and I then would have to conclude the Gospels can not be accepted as evidence. With no evidence I do not find my position untenable at all.
I believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Do I expect you to believe it? No. Am I trying to present evidence of it to you? No. Is my believe in the truth of the Gospels at all relevant to the question of whether historians and scholars accept that Jesus was a real, living human being who actually walked this earth? No.

Jesus (Note I am not saying Christ) was an historical figure. He really did exist. Does this mean the Gospel's claims about him are true. No, of course not. But they merit attention and study in my opinion. I did pay attention, read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation and came away believing it to be the truth of man's origins.

Am I going to try and convince you? Not at all, I din't vare if you believe it or not.

I have merely demonstrated that yours and Mars Ax position and beliefs about Jesus being a fictional character were wrong.
Respect for finally admitting your position, and yes it is relevant, just as the fact that i am an atheist will clearly impact upon my reasoning. Your belief in the Gospels is CRUCIAL as they are by far the most comprehensive record of a real living human being called Jesus walking this earth. I do not believe they are an accurate record that can be used as evidence, you obviously do. I respect your faith but there really is very little other secular confirmation of his existence.On this we will have to agree to disagree.

For 15 years I studied the Bible every day and preached the Gospel but than I began to question my beliefs and went and studied Sufism, Judaism, Buddism, Islam and many other faiths attending temples, synagogues, mosques and interfaith conferences, pagan prayer circles and all manner of religious experiences. It was only after all this that I came to a position of atheism. So to be labelled as an ill educated man and of no consequence clearly rankled me, but no way was i going to be the first to lose his cool and give pacfan any satisfaction.

PEACE