Froch vs. Ward - Saturday fight/chat thread

[Rantcatrat]

http://video.boxingscene.com/filess/...tInterview.wmv - class act after the fight is Froch.

[LobowolfXXX]

Ward goes straight into the mythical top 5 P4P for me now

That'll be nice to see. I've long felt he was underrated on the P4P rankings (probably because his style turns off a lot of people).

[Rantcatrat]

The fight went exactly as expected. Literally, the wise old bookies in Vegas got it 100% correct.

Am I the only one who wasn't super impressed by Ward last night? This was elite level boxing and I give all the credit to both guys in the first instance. It's just the last fight of his magnitude at super middleweight was Calzaghe versus Kessler and as soon as Calzaghe adjusted, it was pure domination. I never felt that happened last night. For example, I didn't see Froch hurt by one punch the whole night. Ward beat Froch clear but it wasn't a domination. Also, when Ward got hit, which wasn't often, Froch's punches seemed to affect him. To me his chin is still a question mark. He also seems open for an uppercut and like he'd have trouble with speed. He clintches a bit too much for my taste too. The eleventh and twelfth rounds weren't fun to watch because Ward clintched the whole time.

I really think the main problem I have with Ward is he has no power. It's one thing for a 37 year old Joe Calzaghe to have trouble getting guys out of there because his hands have been weakened by the game or Bernard Hopkins in his 40's not having concussive power, but Ward is in his prime and he has no power. Ward would win a lot of fans if he worked on getting more leverage into his punches. I don't buy the fact that power is born not taught. Maybe to an extent, but you can work on it to make yourself somewhat more powerful.

Although it could be devastatingly boring to watch, Dirrell seems like a bad style match up for Ward. Maybe Ward will stop Anthony Dirrell in his next fight and we'll get to see Andre Ward versus Andre Dirrell in his next fight.

[Rantcatrat]

Ward goes straight into the mythical top 5 P4P for me now

That'll be nice to see. I've long felt he was underrated on the P4P rankings (probably because his style turns off a lot of people).

Lobo - frankly, he is a very, very good boxer, but he lacks power. When he was winning on the scorecards big going into the 10th round, he should have tried to get Froch out of there; instead he did the exact opposite and clintched his way to victory.

[LobowolfXXX]

Ward goes straight into the mythical top 5 P4P for me now

That'll be nice to see. I've long felt he was underrated on the P4P rankings (probably because his style turns off a lot of people).

Lobo - frankly, he is a very, very good boxer, but he lacks power. When he was winning on the scorecards big going into the 10th round, he should have tried to get Froch out of there; instead he did the exact opposite and clintched his way to victory.

Ever heard of Willie Pep?

[Rantcatrat]

Froch can box (Jermain Taylor).

Recall that Froch was losing *badly* before KO'ing Taylor.

I'm curious what the odds are for this fight. I honestly see Froch as a full class below Ward and having virtually no chance of winning the fight.

IMO he lost the fight to Dirrell. He lost to Kessler (which was the ugliest, sloppist, most amateurish looking fight I've ever seen between two supposedly elite fighters). On my cards, he's lost half of the Super 6 fights he's been in.

He looked good in the Johnson fight though, I'll give him that. So maybe he's really just improved drastically since the beginning of the tournament.

I'd still be happy to lay down a wad of cash on Ward with even halfway-decent odds.

Exactly as expected. Easy money.

I'd rather see Froch-Bute than Ward-Bute now. The first is a good, competive fight (that I pick Bute to win); the second is a wide Ward UD. Would much rather see Maravilla come up (which he's said he won't do) for Ward or see Ward go up and fight Dawson -- that's a pick'em.

For the record, I'm a serious atheist and can't stand the god-talk from Ward either - but otherwise I like him and he's very impressive. On the other hand, I've always disliked Froch and thought he was typically overrated as a big fish in a small, British pond (though he's better than Hatton, at least). It was nice to see him stop being such an arrogant jackass for once and admit he was outclassed though.

Those 115-113 judges should be suspended. This thing was 117-112 at the absolute closest. I only gave Froch round 9. (3 and 11 were the only other possibilities) But it's nice that it was the British judge who got it right.

Do the Brits who were comparing Froch favorably to Calzaghe think Ward outclasses a prime Calzaghe now? (Purely rhetorical -- I'm not ready to go there at this point.)

I think Calzaghe/Ward is relatively straightforward for Calzaghe and likewise Froch was always a straightforward fight for Calzaghe too.

Ward is slick and has smarts, but he has stamina issues and there is just no way that he would be able to keep up with Calzaghe. I see it being relatively close whilst Calzaghe feels him out and then once the work rate is jacked up, then Ward is over his head.

Calzaghe has multiple gameplans too, but also has that superhuman workrate. Nobody can keep up with it. Nobody on this earth.

I thought an old, way-past-his-prime Hopkins edged him, actually. Would have been an easy win for a prime Hopkins.

And a prime Jones would have destroyed Calzaghe.

But you may be right about Calzaghe/Ward. Too early to tell IMO.

Not trying to be dismissive of Calzaghe - he was a very, very good fighter and his workrate was indeed unreal. Just that Hopkins and Jones were best-of-generation fighters, and Calzaghe wasn't. Unclear if Ward is or not. Fairly ridiculous to claim it's "relatively straightforward," though.

I completely disagree, but we'll never know. Prime is a relative term. When? A prime Hopkins lost by a lot to a prime Jones. I'm in the minority but I believe Hopkins developed into a better fighter as he aged. Hopkins didn't want anything to do with Jones until Jones was passed it. I think Hopkins would have problems with Jones or Calzaghe at any stage of his career. A prime Jones would have given Calzaghe problems, but I'm not sure about the result, a prime Calzaghe had punching power too, and Jones never had the best chin. In terms of primes, I would probably give the edge to Jones, then Calzaghe, then Hopkins. At the end of the day, scoreboard.

[Rantcatrat]

Ward goes straight into the mythical top 5 P4P for me now

That'll be nice to see. I've long felt he was underrated on the P4P rankings (probably because his style turns off a lot of people).

Lobo - frankly, he is a very, very good boxer, but he lacks power. When he was winning on the scorecards big going into the 10th round, he should have tried to get Froch out of there; instead he did the exact opposite and clintched his way to victory.

Ever heard of Willie Pep?

What does that mean?

[Rantcatrat]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

[Gandalf]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

This seems to be a common trend amongst America broadcasters. HBO refuses to engage in any honest fashion and Showtime has become the same.

It's a shame because this reflects the US media at large too. An entire culture built on telling lies to let the power brokers know it is all okay.

But big fat lies all the way through. These things happen in fascistic states. America is becoming very fascistic.

[LobowolfXXX]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

Three posts ago, you said, "At the end of the day, scoreboard." Ward's ultimate goal is not to "get his man out of the there"; it's to win the fight.

As for Willie Pep, he's widely regarded as one of the all-time P4P greats, and he's got a knockout percentage not much higher than 25%. So...

[Rantcatrat]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

Three posts ago, you said, "At the end of the day, scoreboard." Ward's ultimate goal is not to "get his man out of the there"; it's to win the fight.

As for Willie Pep, he's widely regarded as one of the all-time P4P greats, and he's got a knockout percentage not much higher than 25%. So...

I think you're missing my point. I'm not suggesting Ward isn't good. Scoreboard - Ward beat Froch, the third best super middleweight out there to most people. Recall that prior to the fight, I said Ward should beat Froch on the cards.

Ward's lack of punching power is what makes him less marketable and less fun to watch, like Paulie Malinaggi, but on a different level. This is prize-fighting too. Hopkins couldn't get Pavlik out of there but his punches took a big toll. Ward's punches didn't take a big toll; Froch just couldn't hit him. Do you understand the difference? Not all defensive fighters don't have power. Mayweather is defensive, but Mayweather knocks people out. Its a big part of the reason he is popular.

[shza]

Also, when Ward got hit, which wasn't often, Froch's punches seemed to affect him.

I didn't see that *at all.* Ward's clean shots actually hurt Froch more than the other way. But neither guy was ever seriously hurt.

[LobowolfXXX]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

Three posts ago, you said, "At the end of the day, scoreboard." Ward's ultimate goal is not to "get his man out of the there"; it's to win the fight.

As for Willie Pep, he's widely regarded as one of the all-time P4P greats, and he's got a knockout percentage not much higher than 25%. So...

I think you're missing my point. I'm not suggesting Ward isn't good. Scoreboard - Ward beat Froch, the third best super middleweight out there to most people. Recall that prior to the fight, I said Ward should beat Froch on the cards.

Ward's lack of punching power is what makes him less marketable and less fun to watch, like Paulie Malinaggi, but on a different level. This is prize-fighting too. Hopkins couldn't get Pavlik out of there but his punches took a big toll. Ward's punches didn't take a big toll; Froch just couldn't hit him. Do you understand the difference? Not all defensive fighters don't have power. Mayweather is defensive, but Mayweather knocks people out. Its a big part of the reason he is popular.

If you're just talking about Ward's appeal and marketability, I agree. Personally, I enjoy his fights a great deal, but I get it that many people don't. It wasn't clear to me whether you were only talking about that, or if you were further suggesting that this somehow undermines his greatness; it's this latter point that I would disagree with.

[Rantcatrat]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

Three posts ago, you said, "At the end of the day, scoreboard." Ward's ultimate goal is not to "get his man out of the there"; it's to win the fight.

As for Willie Pep, he's widely regarded as one of the all-time P4P greats, and he's got a knockout percentage not much higher than 25%. So...

I think you're missing my point. I'm not suggesting Ward isn't good. Scoreboard - Ward beat Froch, the third best super middleweight out there to most people. Recall that prior to the fight, I said Ward should beat Froch on the cards.

Ward's lack of punching power is what makes him less marketable and less fun to watch, like Paulie Malinaggi, but on a different level. This is prize-fighting too. Hopkins couldn't get Pavlik out of there but his punches took a big toll. Ward's punches didn't take a big toll; Froch just couldn't hit him. Do you understand the difference? Not all defensive fighters don't have power. Mayweather is defensive, but Mayweather knocks people out. Its a big part of the reason he is popular.

If you're just talking about Ward's appeal and marketability, I agree. Personally, I enjoy his fights a great deal, but I get it that many people don't. It wasn't clear to me whether you were only talking about that, or if you were further suggesting that this somehow undermines his greatness; it's this latter point that I would disagree with.

Oh NO way, does it undermine his greatness. He has a great future as a boxer. The problem I see has to do with his marketability and appeal to the average fan. Dibella tweeted about a comment he overheard in the bar after the fight: "I'd rather see Gatti/Ward than Andre Ward." Now, that may just be a casual fan's comment, and not a boxing fanatic like some of us are in this forum, but there's something to be said for it. I think we'd agree that there is something special about being able to get your opponent out of there in terms of entertainment value. Ward can still be entertaining without doing it, but he would more entertaining if he could add it. Right?

[Beanz]

Did anyone else find that broadcast ridiculously pro-Ward? I'm not sure I heard one compliment about Froch nor one criticism of Ward. How about someone suggesting that Ward should try and get his man out of there for once? This is prizefighting, isn't it?

Three posts ago, you said, "At the end of the day, scoreboard." Ward's ultimate goal is not to "get his man out of the there"; it's to win the fight.

As for Willie Pep, he's widely regarded as one of the all-time P4P greats, and he's got a knockout percentage not much higher than 25%. So...

I think you're missing my point. I'm not suggesting Ward isn't good. Scoreboard - Ward beat Froch, the third best super middleweight out there to most people. Recall that prior to the fight, I said Ward should beat Froch on the cards.

Ward's lack of punching power is what makes him less marketable and less fun to watch, like Paulie Malinaggi, but on a different level. This is prize-fighting too. Hopkins couldn't get Pavlik out of there but his punches took a big toll. Ward's punches didn't take a big toll; Froch just couldn't hit him. Do you understand the difference? Not all defensive fighters don't have power. Mayweather is defensive, but Mayweather knocks people out. Its a big part of the reason he is popular.

If you're just talking about Ward's appeal and marketability, I agree. Personally, I enjoy his fights a great deal, but I get it that many people don't. It wasn't clear to me whether you were only talking about that, or if you were further suggesting that this somehow undermines his greatness; it's this latter point that I would disagree with.

Oh NO way, does it undermine his greatness. He has a great future as a boxer. The problem I see has to do with his marketability and appeal to the average fan. Dibella tweeted about a comment he overheard in the bar after the fight: "I'd rather see Gatti/Ward than Andre Ward." Now, that may just be a casual fan's comment, and not a boxing fanatic like some of us are in this forum, but there's something to be said for it. I think we'd agree that there is something special about being able to get your opponent out of there in terms of entertainment value. Ward can still be entertaining without doing it, but he would more entertaining if he could add it. Right?

It is not just in the ring, pre and post fight in his interviews Ward just comes across as dull and unexcited about anything himself. it is difficult to motivate the public to get behind you when you portray yourself as being prayed for by saints, and so easily offended etc. If he smiled now and again and showed a bit of passion, more non boxing fans will get interested. He has a great skill set but seems to lack that finishing instinct. He may not be the biggest puncher but there are ways of stopping people early with pressure in more concentrated bursts, and he needs to add that to his armoury to get more neutral punters on board. Ward seems so afraid of be labelled negatively that his SOG persona has seriously taken any excitement out of his marketability. On the one hand his promoter says "behold his Viciousness" and then Andre says "oh i couldn't call myself the destroyer or anything" the public is confused.