Is ward being a little bit overrated in all of this?

[shza]

Usually, you have to beat a p4p fighter to get into the top 5 p4p or move around in weight.

I think "usually" is putting it way too strongly. Ideally, yes; but in reality, I'm not sure that's how it typically goes.

I think Floyd, Manny, and Donaire are the only people on most people's top 10 lists that have beaten another top 10 p4p fighter. Hopkins too, if you have him there.

And the only other guys who have moved up in weight (but have never beaten a top p4p fighter) are JMM and Martinez. But I don't think that going up in weight is a major reason anyone rates those guys -- it has to do more with how they look when they fight.

Wlad, Vitali, Ponjangkam, Bradley and Ward fit neither of these criteria (I'm not counting Bradley's couple of whatever fights at 147 as meaningful) and they are the other folks that appear on most people's top 10 lists. Same thing for honorable mentions like Gamboa and Rios.

For me, "how good were Kessler and Froch, really?" is only half of the competition question. The full question is "how do those guys compare to: (a) Montiel and Darchinyan at the time Donaire beat them (I think probably not quite as good); (b) Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk when Martinez beat them (I think a little better).

And then beyond the competition question is the question of how talented he actually *looks* in the ring. E.g., even if Roy Jones had stayed at 160 and fought no one but B-Class fighters his whole career, it would be hard to deny his world-class talent. I think there, both Donaire and Martinez shade Ward.

But the fact that these questions are all so close leads me to conclude that there's nothing *crazy* about rating Ward as high as #5 -- or even 3 or 4.

I mean, who is the best fighter that JMM has actually beaten? A shot Barrera in what was still a close fight?

[Rantcatrat]

Usually, you have to beat a p4p fighter to get into the top 5 p4p or move around in weight.

I think "usually" is putting it way too strongly. Ideally, yes; but in reality, I'm not sure that's how it typically goes.

I think Floyd, Manny, and Donaire are the only people on most people's top 10 lists that have beaten another top 10 p4p fighter. Hopkins too, if you have him there.

And the only other guys who have moved up in weight (but have never beaten a top p4p fighter) are JMM and Martinez. But I don't think that going up in weight is a major reason anyone rates those guys -- it has to do more with how they look when they fight.

Wlad, Vitali, Ponjangkam, Bradley and Ward fit neither of these criteria (I'm not counting Bradley's couple of whatever fights at 147 as meaningful) and they are the other folks that appear on most people's top 10 lists. Same thing for honorable mentions like Gamboa and Rios.

For me, "how good were Kessler and Froch, really?" is only half of the competition question. The full question is "how do those guys compare to: (a) Montiel and Darchinyan at the time Donaire beat them (I think probably not quite as good); (b) Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk when Martinez beat them (I think a little better).

And then beyond the competition question is the question of how talented he actually *looks* in the ring. E.g., even if Roy Jones had stayed at 160 and fought no one but B-Class fighters his whole career, it would be hard to deny his world-class talent. I think there, both Donaire and Martinez shade Ward.

But the fact that these questions are all so close leads me to conclude that there's nothing *crazy* about rating Ward as high as #5 -- or even 3 or 4.

I mean, who is the best fighter that JMM has actually beaten? A shot Barrera in what was still a close fight?

Martinez beat Paul Williams when Paul Williams was ranked p4p. Pavlik was the lineal middleweight champion of the world when he fought Martinez and Martinez was going up in weight from 154 to 160. Martinez was the underdog too. Dzinziruk was the top dog at 154 when he fought Martinez. But, I'm a Martinez fan so I'm partial. Froch wasn't in the p4p rankings when he fought Ward, neither was Kessler. In fact, Froch wasn't even the second-highest ranked super middleweight when Ward fought him, Bute was.

I see your point though and it's all subjective.