Non-British perspective: Froch easier to like than was Calzaghe

[TitoFan]

I think we're all getting off the subject here. Although I do admit I didn't think this thread would generate this much emotion. Must've touched a nerve somewhere.



Fact is... and speaking for myself... I'm not a Calzaghe hater. The man did what he did, and more power to him. He managed to finish his career undefeated, which a lot of fighters are not able to do. Of course... those same fighters face more dangerous and higher level opposition in the upper stages of their careers, also. Facts are facts. Calzaghe had the Kessler fight, and a couple of others. But all in all... other fighters with lesser records (ie: losses to their name) have had more impressive careers. Again, not hate... just facts.

Nowhere in the thread title or any of my posts have I claimed that Froch is, was, or will ever be a better fighter than Calzaghe. Nowhere. Only that Froch is easier to like than Calzaghe. And that point has hardly been disputed, even by diehard Calzaghe fans.

I was enlightened as to Calzaghe's brittle hands and how he changed styles somewhere during his career. Well... all that explains is why his fights have been so "fan un-friendly". At least from my vantage point. You see, while I admire that he continued fighting, even with his brittle hands, it still remains true that I did not like any of his highly publicized fights. His fight against Hopkins was absolutely deplorable, probably because Hopkins himself has never been fun to watch. Then there's the fact that Calzaghe chose Peter Manfredo as an opponent. And if that wasn't ridiculous enough, the "flurry" that ended the fight was downright laughable. Not one punch thrown in anger. If I was Manfredo and I watched a replay of that last flurry..... I'd hang myself. Anyway, Manfredo had no business being there in the first place.

As a fan, I have my tastes in boxing. I like action fights and action fighters, such as was Gatti.... Barrera... Corrales.... Cotto. I also like master boxers, such as Mayweather. Floyd gained a lot of respect from me with his showing against Cotto.

But whether they're brawlers or boxers..... I still need to see PUNCHES..... not SLAPS!!! I want to see a slapfest.... I'll pinch a woman in the ass at a bar and blame the guy next to me.

[IamInuit]

I think we're all getting off the subject here. Although I do admit I didn't think this thread would generate this much emotion. Must've touched a nerve somewhere.



This is what kind of bugs me. Its not the Calzaghe fans getting emotional at all. Its a matter of a road paved with good intentions leading to hell. Who is more likeable was the question and it quickly turned into Calzaghes credentials as a fighter. I'd rather go for a pint with Carl but Calzaghe would have kicked the living snot out of him. Before he broke his hands on Omars face or after.

Fact is... and speaking for myself... I'm not a Calzaghe hater. The man did what he did, and more power to him. He managed to finish his career undefeated, which a lot of fighters are not able to do. Of course... those same fighters face more dangerous and higher level opposition in the upper stages of their careers, also. Facts are facts. Calzaghe had the Kessler fight, and a couple of others. But all in all... other fighters with lesser records (ie: losses to their name) have had more impressive careers. Again, not hate... just facts.

There are no false facts. I find it easier to respond this way at times and bold my replies to portions rather then quote the post and respond. I sincerely mean no offense by this format. Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division or Marciano for a less then stellar heavyweight division. What stands out for Joe is the Lacy fight and the Kessler fight for me at a time when 175 was looming. Facts are facts.

Nowhere in the thread title or any of my posts have I claimed that Froch is, was, or will ever be a better fighter than Calzaghe. Nowhere. Only that Froch is easier to like than Calzaghe. And that point has hardly been disputed, even by diehard Calzaghe fans.

Fair enough.

I was enlightened as to Calzaghe's brittle hands and how he changed styles somewhere during his career. Well... all that explains is why his fights have been so "fan un-friendly". At least from my vantage point. You see, while I admire that he continued fighting, even with his brittle hands, it still remains true that I did not like any of his highly publicized fights. His fight against Hopkins was absolutely deplorable, probably because Hopkins himself has never been fun to watch. Then there's the fact that Calzaghe chose Peter Manfredo as an opponent. And if that wasn't ridiculous enough, the "flurry" that ended the fight was downright laughable. Not one punch thrown in anger. If I was Manfredo and I watched a replay of that last flurry..... I'd hang myself. Anyway, Manfredo had no business being there in the first place.

I'm kind of enlightened by your enlightenment. The fact that he did what he did after hand problems is remarkable. Other fighters have done the same thing as Joe and won in the same style w/o hand problems. Ali stole more rounds slapping then probably anyone in history. Ray Leonard, Joe Gans, Nicolino Locche, Langford etc etc. Manfredo was a contender star and Stieglitz was not going to fight Joe mandatory or not so Joe dumped the IBF and fought Manfredo for the money and exposure. Fact.

As a fan, I have my tastes in boxing. I like action fights and action fighters, such as was Gatti.... Barrera... Corrales.... Cotto. I also like master boxers, such as Mayweather. Floyd gained a lot of respect from me with his showing against Cotto.

Limon/Chacon 4 is as fine as Leonard/Benitez for me.

But whether they're brawlers or boxers..... I still need to see PUNCHES..... not SLAPS!!! I want to see a slapfest.... I'll pinch a woman in the ass at a bar and blame the guy next to me.

I had to say something in order to get past a character limit. This would be that something lol

Peace man.

[TitoFan]

Good, thought-out response, bro. I've only got a couple of differences with what you stated... and I've also inserted them into the quote below (in red).

I think we're all getting off the subject here. Although I do admit I didn't think this thread would generate this much emotion. Must've touched a nerve somewhere.



This is what kind of bugs me. Its not the Calzaghe fans getting emotional at all. Its a matter of a road paved with good intentions leading to hell. Who is more likeable was the question and it quickly turned into Calzaghes credentials as a fighter. I'd rather go for a pint with Carl but Calzaghe would have kicked the living snot out of him. Before he broke his hands on Omars face or after.

Fact is... and speaking for myself... I'm not a Calzaghe hater. The man did what he did, and more power to him. He managed to finish his career undefeated, which a lot of fighters are not able to do. Of course... those same fighters face more dangerous and higher level opposition in the upper stages of their careers, also. Facts are facts. Calzaghe had the Kessler fight, and a couple of others. But all in all... other fighters with lesser records (ie: losses to their name) have had more impressive careers. Again, not hate... just facts.

There are no false facts. I find it easier to respond this way at times and bold my replies to portions rather then quote the post and respond. I sincerely mean no offense by this format. Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division or Marciano for a less then stellar heavyweight division. What stands out for Joe is the Lacy fight and the Kessler fight for me at a time when 175 was looming. Facts are facts.

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

Nowhere in the thread title or any of my posts have I claimed that Froch is, was, or will ever be a better fighter than Calzaghe. Nowhere. Only that Froch is easier to like than Calzaghe. And that point has hardly been disputed, even by diehard Calzaghe fans.

Fair enough.

I was enlightened as to Calzaghe's brittle hands and how he changed styles somewhere during his career. Well... all that explains is why his fights have been so "fan un-friendly". At least from my vantage point. You see, while I admire that he continued fighting, even with his brittle hands, it still remains true that I did not like any of his highly publicized fights. His fight against Hopkins was absolutely deplorable, probably because Hopkins himself has never been fun to watch. Then there's the fact that Calzaghe chose Peter Manfredo as an opponent. And if that wasn't ridiculous enough, the "flurry" that ended the fight was downright laughable. Not one punch thrown in anger. If I was Manfredo and I watched a replay of that last flurry..... I'd hang myself. Anyway, Manfredo had no business being there in the first place.

I'm kind of enlightened by your enlightenment. The fact that he did what he did after hand problems is remarkable. Other fighters have done the same thing as Joe and won in the same style w/o hand problems. Ali stole more rounds slapping then probably anyone in history. Ray Leonard, Joe Gans, Nicolino Locche, Langford etc etc. Manfredo was a contender star and Stieglitz was not going to fight Joe mandatory or not so Joe dumped the IBF and fought Manfredo for the money and exposure. Fact.

Ali did NOT slap. Ali had little power in his punches, because of the way he threw them. He rarely put his whole body weight behind his punches, but rather threw them while leaning back or falling away. There's a huge difference between that and slapping. Ray Leonard, if you're including him in that group... was most definitely not a slapper. He could have his meaningless flurries, like a few he threw against Hagler. But he could punch with power, and had a few good KOs to his credit. Calzaghe was a slapper. For whatever the reason. Brittle hands, whatever. He slapped. The flurries looked downright U-G-L-Y. Turned me off immediately. Whatever the reason for Calzaghe to fight Manfredo, it was laughable. Should've never occurred at that stage of Calzaghe's career. Being a "Contender" star is a dubious entry in a fighter's resume.

As a fan, I have my tastes in boxing. I like action fights and action fighters, such as was Gatti.... Barrera... Corrales.... Cotto. I also like master boxers, such as Mayweather. Floyd gained a lot of respect from me with his showing against Cotto.

Limon/Chacon 4 is as fine as Leonard/Benitez for me.

But whether they're brawlers or boxers..... I still need to see PUNCHES..... not SLAPS!!! I want to see a slapfest.... I'll pinch a woman in the ass at a bar and blame the guy next to me.

I had to say something in order to get past a character limit. This would be that something lol

Peace man.

Your points are well taken, though.

[IamInuit]

There are no false facts. I find it easier to respond this way at times and bold my replies to portions rather then quote the post and respond. I sincerely mean no offense by this format. Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division or Marciano for a less then stellar heavyweight division. What stands out for Joe is the Lacy fight and the Kessler fight for me at a time when 175 was looming. Facts are facts.

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

Give me a name prior to Tito? a CAREER WELTER recently turned Jr Mid? Hopkins is a 1st ballot hall of famer for a dominant career and yet Reid probably beats anyone he fought. I'm not saying his record is better. You are saying I am and then suggesting my response is emotional.

Who did Marciano fight prime wise?

Ali did NOT slap. Ali had little power in his punches, because of the way he threw them. He rarely put his whole body weight behind his punches, but rather threw them while leaning back or falling away. There's a huge difference between that and slapping. Ray Leonard, if you're including him in that group... was most definitely not a slapper. He could have his meaningless flurries, like a few he threw against Hagler. But he could punch with power, and had a few good KOs to his credit. Calzaghe was a slapper. For whatever the reason. Brittle hands, whatever. He slapped. The flurries looked downright U-G-L-Y. Turned me off immediately. Whatever the reason for Calzaghe to fight Manfredo, it was laughable. Should've never occurred at that stage of Calzaghe's career. Being a "Contender" star is a dubious entry in a fighter's resume.

Yes he did. Almost as much as he held behind the head. He and many others have won fights by the very combinations you dismiss. I could draft a list of fighters who slap by your opinion that would grow eternally. You claim that you are not a hater and that its a fact and yet empirical evidence would suggest that's not the case.

[TitoFan]

There are no false facts. I find it easier to respond this way at times and bold my replies to portions rather then quote the post and respond. I sincerely mean no offense by this format. Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division or Marciano for a less then stellar heavyweight division. What stands out for Joe is the Lacy fight and the Kessler fight for me at a time when 175 was looming. Facts are facts.

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

Give me a name prior to Tito? a CAREER WELTER recently turned Jr Mid? Hopkins is a 1st ballot hall of famer for a dominant career and yet Reid probably beats anyone he fought. I'm not saying his record is better. You are saying I am and then suggesting my response is emotional.

Who did Marciano fight prime wise?

Ali did NOT slap. Ali had little power in his punches, because of the way he threw them. He rarely put his whole body weight behind his punches, but rather threw them while leaning back or falling away. There's a huge difference between that and slapping. Ray Leonard, if you're including him in that group... was most definitely not a slapper. He could have his meaningless flurries, like a few he threw against Hagler. But he could punch with power, and had a few good KOs to his credit. Calzaghe was a slapper. For whatever the reason. Brittle hands, whatever. He slapped. The flurries looked downright U-G-L-Y. Turned me off immediately. Whatever the reason for Calzaghe to fight Manfredo, it was laughable. Should've never occurred at that stage of Calzaghe's career. Being a "Contender" star is a dubious entry in a fighter's resume.

Yes he did. Almost as much as he held behind the head. He and many others have won fights by the very combinations you dismiss. I could draft a list of fighters who slap by your opinion that would grow eternally. You claim that you are not a hater and that its a fact and yet empirical evidence would suggest that's not the case.

Oh..... I don't agree with you so I'm a hater?
I was starting to give you credit for being a non-emotional Calzaghe fan, but never mind.




By the way, I give you a paragraph of technical explanations as to why Ali was not the pathetic "slapper" that Calzaghe was..... and you counter with:
"Yes he did."

I rest my case.

[Gandalf]

Sorry, but it's a stupid thread to begin with.

And it resorts down to who slaps. Sorry Tito, you are the one who keeps it going and it seems to resort to who slaps the most.

Seriously?

[TitoFan]

Sorry, but it's a stupid thread to begin with.

And it resorts down to who slaps. Sorry Tito, you are the one who keeps it going and it seems to resort to who slaps the most.

Seriously?

Does it offend you that some of us don't burn incense at the foot of Calzaghe's life-size statue? Apparently it does. Just accept the fact that JC punched like a girl in the latter stages of his career and be done with it. You'll feel refreshed... I assure you.

[TitoFan]

There are no false facts. I find it easier to respond this way at times and bold my replies to portions rather then quote the post and respond. I sincerely mean no offense by this format. Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division or Marciano for a less then stellar heavyweight division. What stands out for Joe is the Lacy fight and the Kessler fight for me at a time when 175 was looming. Facts are facts.

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

Give me a name prior to Tito? a CAREER WELTER recently turned Jr Mid? Hopkins is a 1st ballot hall of famer for a dominant career and yet Reid probably beats anyone he fought. I'm not saying his record is better. You are saying I am and then suggesting my response is emotional.

Who did Marciano fight prime wise?

Ali did NOT slap. Ali had little power in his punches, because of the way he threw them. He rarely put his whole body weight behind his punches, but rather threw them while leaning back or falling away. There's a huge difference between that and slapping. Ray Leonard, if you're including him in that group... was most definitely not a slapper. He could have his meaningless flurries, like a few he threw against Hagler. But he could punch with power, and had a few good KOs to his credit. Calzaghe was a slapper. For whatever the reason. Brittle hands, whatever. He slapped. The flurries looked downright U-G-L-Y. Turned me off immediately. Whatever the reason for Calzaghe to fight Manfredo, it was laughable. Should've never occurred at that stage of Calzaghe's career. Being a "Contender" star is a dubious entry in a fighter's resume.

Yes he did. Almost as much as he held behind the head. He and many others have won fights by the very combinations you dismiss. I could draft a list of fighters who slap by your opinion that would grow eternally. You claim that you are not a hater and that its a fact and yet empirical evidence would suggest that's not the case.

Oh..... I don't agree with you so I'm a hater?
I was starting to give you credit for being a non-emotional Calzaghe fan, but never mind.




By the way, I give you a paragraph of technical explanations as to why Ali was not the pathetic "slapper" that Calzaghe was..... and you counter with:
"Yes he did."

I rest my case.

Ahhhhhhh..... the silence that always follows a whitewash.

[TitoFan]

Ali did NOT slap. Ali had little power in his punches, because of the way he threw them. He rarely put his whole body weight behind his punches, but rather threw them while leaning back or falling away. There's a huge difference between that and slapping. Ray Leonard, if you're including him in that group... was most definitely not a slapper. He could have his meaningless flurries, like a few he threw against Hagler. But he could punch with power, and had a few good KOs to his credit. Calzaghe was a slapper. For whatever the reason. Brittle hands, whatever. He slapped. The flurries looked downright U-G-L-Y. Turned me off immediately. Whatever the reason for Calzaghe to fight Manfredo, it was laughable. Should've never occurred at that stage of Calzaghe's career. Being a "Contender" star is a dubious entry in a fighter's resume.

IamInuit, this is what I responded to you about a dozen posts ago when you claimed Ali was a "slapper". All you've done since then is answer me with "Yes he was." No counter-arguments... no explanations backing up your own points of view.... nothing. Between you repeating yourself, and Fanny going off on absurd tangents... you're accomplishing nothing but to convince me that neither of you knows how to drive home a point.

If this is what you call "insulting" and "hating", then so be it. I'm still waiting to hear any real logic from either of you two.

[IamInuit]

Did you watch the Doug Jones fight? How about Young? You want to lecture me on slapping? Ali stole more rounds in a career by doing so then anyone else in history.

[TitoFan]

You and Fanny continue to try my patience. Again... you're not backing up your statements. Ali threw a lot of punches off his back foot, without any leverage. They were punches... just not meant to create damage. He was a master boxer... he knew when to put his body behind his punches and when to punch defensively. Calzaghe, as can be clearly seen in slow-motion replays of his later fights... threw punches awkwardly, not just landing with the wrong part of the glove... but his whole arm motion looks funny. Maybe he was protecting his brittle hands. But it still makes for ugly looking professional boxing.

[IamInuit]

Empirical.

observation
experience
repeatability