Holocaust denial

[Gandalf]

For starters Chomsky is neither a respected historian on American Indians or a paleontologists so he is no more an authoritarian on the subject than your or I. I know you have a man-crush on him but unless we are talking linguistics his opinion is no different than Bilbos. I can't respond to your link b/c it wouldn't work for me.

Regarding your reponse to Lyle: The Indians were no better than the Europeans. They enslaved, raped, and destroyed other tribes. The only reason the Indians helped the English settlers was purely strategic and political, they offset the power of the dominant tribe of the region. The oppressed tribes of Mexico supported the Conquistadores for the same reasons. Indians weren't noble, they weren't holier than the Europeans, they did the exact same things for the exact same reasons. Just that the Europeans were better at it, and they learned by having it done to them. The US perpetuated some pretty horific things on the Natives but not really that different then what tribes did to other tribes and all in all was pretty par for the field regarding how victors treated losers at the time.

Since you started this by comparing the two then lets finish it that way. The Holocaust was a sytematic rounding up of European Jews and other less desirables by Nazi Germany to work in forced labor camps and/or death camps with the "final solution" being extermination of the race. Many Jews were flat out murdered as well as dying of disease and malnutrition in the camps. The process was not only continued but accelerated as the war wound down even to the detriment of the Nazi War effort.

North American exploration (excluding Viking colonies in the far north) is often thought to have started with Columbus but John Cabot was probably the first to actually land on what we now call the US in 1497 but his actual point of landing is disputed. In the early 16 century a slew of explorers land on the US East and Gulf Coasts. Over the first century and a half after Columbus's voyages, the native population of the Americas (North, South and Central) plummeted by an estimated 80% (from around 50 million in 1492 to eight million in 1650) mostly by outbreaks of old world diseases. The Smallpox History of the World states "Epidemics of smallpox (1518, 1521, 1525, 1558, 1589), typhus (1546), influenza (1555,diptheria (1614) and measles (1615 swept ahead of initial European contact,[killing between 10 million and 20 million people, up to 95% of the indigineous population of the Americas."So by the time the first lasting colony (James Town) was established in 1607 the process of de-population in North America was in full swing. There were about a dozen major conflicts during the colonial period some of which were perpetrated by the tribes on the colonials such as the Indian Massacre of 1622 where the indians were welcomed into homes and then massacred over 300 people. Most were different tribes working with colonials to attack rivals or ingratiate themselves with the Europeans. The US was involved in around 40 different military conflicts with Indian Tribes between 1775 and 1918. Many of these were ugly conflicts with atrocities on both sides and I'm also not going to try to sugar coat the treatment of defeated tribes some of which were handled with compassion and some of which were horrendous.

If you read these two descriptions (I admit over simplified a bit) and feel that they are similar then ok but I feel that is a representation of your lack of objectivity when discussing the US versus a well versed opinion.

So look into American Holocaust then if you don't take Chomsky's word. Lest we forget Chomsky is quoted in academic research more than any other contemporary scholar and it isn't all down to linguistics. Clearly he is somewhat more significant than Bilbo or you or I.

I know the history and have done my reading. My views don't appear out of the ether. I'm busy so cannot give this any more time, or anything else for that matter. I shall return.

[VictorCharlie]

I think we've pretty much exhausted this but if you feel the need to respond I'll be waiting breathlessly.

[El Kabong]

Lest we forget Chomsky is a twat.

Good, glad we can agree