Holocaust denial

[Gandalf]

"De-population" sounds a little cold, Victor. To be sure, in all of the Americas, many indigenous indian cultures were systematically wiped out. But as has been repeated often, this happened over decades and even centuries. It was also the result of warring between colonists from Europe and the indian inhabitants. Indians were not led helplessly in single file into a volcano pit or anything like that. Many colonists lost their lives as well. It was a different time back then. New worlds were still being discovered. This is why I and everyone else disagrees with Miles comparing this to the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis. Europe's colonists and the indian cultures in both Americas were not going to be able to coexist.

Moral truisms then and today are much the same. You know that you shouldn't rape your sister, you know that you shouldn't slit the throat of the neighbor because he gave you a funny look, you know you should respect others. The settlers who commited genocide, were much like the people who lead people to death via governments, military, business and financial abuse today. It's just on the whole we tend to be more subtle or in the case of Panama, Iraq and Afghanistan not so subtle. These days it is control of regions rather than outright genocide. It's not so easy today.They were greedy cunts back then and enough was never enough. You've got to take more and more. Our methods are just more clever now.

Furthermore, the settlers did round up Indians and did incarcerate them in camps and even today the standard of living for natives is considerably lower than that of their bulkier counterparts.

[TitoFan]

"De-population" sounds a little cold, Victor. To be sure, in all of the Americas, many indigenous indian cultures were systematically wiped out. But as has been repeated often, this happened over decades and even centuries. It was also the result of warring between colonists from Europe and the indian inhabitants. Indians were not led helplessly in single file into a volcano pit or anything like that. Many colonists lost their lives as well. It was a different time back then. New worlds were still being discovered. This is why I and everyone else disagrees with Miles comparing this to the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis. Europe's colonists and the indian cultures in both Americas were not going to be able to coexist.

Moral truisms then and today are much the same. You know that you shouldn't rape your sister, you know that you shouldn't slit the throat of the neighbor because he gave you a funny look, you know you should respect others. The settlers who commited genocide, were much like the people who lead people to death via governments, military, business and financial abuse today. It's just on the whole we tend to be more subtle or in the case of Panama, Iraq and Afghanistan not so subtle. These days it is control of regions rather than outright genocide. It's not so easy today.They were greedy cunts back then and enough was never enough. You've got to take more and more. Our methods are just more clever now.

Furthermore, the settlers did round up Indians and did incarcerate them in camps and even today the standard of living for natives is considerably lower than that of their bulkier counterparts.

Gotta go. Don't get pissed off like you did the last time. Good argument, I'm sure it'll still be here in the morning.

[VictorCharlie]

Actually I think moral truiisms is a bullshit argument. We don't even have consistent moral codes across this time much less across centuries.

[Gandalf]

Actually I think moral truiisms is a bullshit argument. We don't even have consistent moral codes across this time much less across centuries.

On the whole we do. Some deviate from that, but on the whole we follow pretty basic value systems as humans. On the whole most of us abstain from killing each other, beating each other up, burning property, stealing cars etc. We are ingrained with a pretty consistent sense of right and wrong. Most of us have pretty solid value systems. It is only those with excessive power or criminals who really deviate from the norms.

[Gandalf]

"De-population" sounds a little cold, Victor. To be sure, in all of the Americas, many indigenous indian cultures were systematically wiped out. But as has been repeated often, this happened over decades and even centuries. It was also the result of warring between colonists from Europe and the indian inhabitants. Indians were not led helplessly in single file into a volcano pit or anything like that. Many colonists lost their lives as well. It was a different time back then. New worlds were still being discovered. This is why I and everyone else disagrees with Miles comparing this to the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis. Europe's colonists and the indian cultures in both Americas were not going to be able to coexist.

Moral truisms then and today are much the same. You know that you shouldn't rape your sister, you know that you shouldn't slit the throat of the neighbor because he gave you a funny look, you know you should respect others. The settlers who commited genocide, were much like the people who lead people to death via governments, military, business and financial abuse today. It's just on the whole we tend to be more subtle or in the case of Panama, Iraq and Afghanistan not so subtle. These days it is control of regions rather than outright genocide. It's not so easy today.They were greedy cunts back then and enough was never enough. You've got to take more and more. Our methods are just more clever now.

Furthermore, the settlers did round up Indians and did incarcerate them in camps and even today the standard of living for natives is considerably lower than that of their bulkier counterparts.

Gotta go. Don't get pissed off like you did the last time. Good argument, I'm sure it'll still be here in the morning.

I got annoyed the one time because I was a bit drunk, nothing to do with losing any arguments or being pissed off.

It's a pretty sound argument all the way through and I do read what everyone says and take those points on board, but I also do my own reading and on the whole that is where my views become kind of stubborn. But likewise, I am no less stubborn than any of you.

I think we can all essentially just agree to disagree. In truth, I am struggling to put the time into these posts and should really be knuckling on with marking rather than discussing the meaningfulness of holocausts. I want to enjoy a good fight weekend rather than get all heated over the holocaust (no pun intended).

All I will say in conclusion is that it is a terrible tragedy for a holocaust/genocide to happen anywhere. To be killed for resisting the theft of my home, or be forced to endure suffering because you are a minority is sick. It is one reason Palestine makes me so annoyed. We are seeing it happen again and keep sitting by to let it happen. Anyway, that's all. I have grades to fix. See you all for the fight this weekend.