If pac fought marquez after oscar...

[imp]

so to summarise i think barring a KO pac struggles with marquez but is slightly better over the distance and that would be the same at any point in their carears

what do you think?

I agree with that.
Marquez needs the ko all the time to win.

do you agree with the controversy of the 3rd fight?

i didnt see it live and from reading the press and forums after the fight it seemed pac had been gifted

I think they gave it to pac due to the aggression. It could have went either way if im being honest.

Whenever these guys fight its always close.

When they fought for the 3rd time pacs camp were so cocky as they were used to the weight and everything and they fought it would be so easy.

I even remember alex ariza saying something like even "God cant help marquez."

[Beanflicker]

It's amazing what one bad loss can do to a career. Before Marquez 3, people were talking about Pac like he was the new and improved Henry Armstrong, and he was a top 5 guy of all time, ect.

Now he's a guy who was overrated and chose convenient catch weights to ambush his opponents (and I'm not even saying that's entirely untrue.)

[ElTerribleMorales]

It's amazing what one bad loss can do to a career. Before Marquez 3, people were talking about Pac like he was the new and improved Henry Armstrong, and he was a top 5 guy of all time, ect.

Now he's a guy who was overrated and chose convenient catch weights to ambush his opponents (and I'm not even saying that's entirely untrue.)

I've been one of the few who had said it all along, I would give him the credit he deserved but wouldn't gush over him like if he was some God, Pacquiao would nit pick his opponents and always seek some "advantage" rather taking on an opponent on even terms, he only decided to take on Marquez in the 3rd fight because Floyd had taken him apart but won by decision so he figured since JMM was older he could get the stoppage and was completely schooled in the process, had a bad showing against Bradley then decided to take on Marquez again but again he paid dearly for it

[IamInuit]

It's amazing what one bad loss can do to a career. Before Marquez 3, people were talking about Pac like he was the new and improved Henry Armstrong, and he was a top 5 guy of all time, ect.

Now he's a guy who was overrated and chose convenient catch weights to ambush his opponents (and I'm not even saying that's entirely untrue.)

I've been one of the few who had said it all along, I would give him the credit he deserved but wouldn't gush over him like if he was some God, Pacquiao would nit pick his opponents and always seek some "advantage" rather taking on an opponent on even terms, he only decided to take on Marquez in the 3rd fight because Floyd had taken him apart but won by decision so he figured since JMM was older he could get the stoppage and was completely schooled in the process, had a bad showing against Bradley then decided to take on Marquez again but again he paid dearly for it

Agreed. It was his fan boys that I had a problem with and not Manny. People saying he'd beat Robinson, Armstrong etc etc. It got to the point on a lot of forums when I thought people were actually devolving at least mentally. Arum had a slave contract and also knew full well that if Manny had issues with Marquez that Floyd would turn him into his personal rag doll. Like I said in that comparison thread, what he has done is really unprecedented but the way in which he went about it to me is tainted and I believe notations will be made in historical context and they should be. Starting with Oscar who had not made 147 in ten years, weighed 145 and then came to the fight only weighing 147. Making Cotto come down 2 pounds for his own title and then fighting the biggest welter in the division in Clottey w/o a catch. A great fighter no doubt but there are some critical skid marks imo. He's defaulted to the greatest Filipino boxer ever but I just don't agree. I still have him below Elorde and Villa.

[Beanflicker]

I've been one of the few who had said it all along, I would give him the credit he deserved but wouldn't gush over him like if he was some God, Pacquiao would nit pick his opponents and always seek some "advantage" rather taking on an opponent on even terms, he only decided to take on Marquez in the 3rd fight because Floyd had taken him apart but won by decision so he figured since JMM was older he could get the stoppage and was completely schooled in the process, had a bad showing against Bradley then decided to take on Marquez again but again he paid dearly for it

I've never been a fan of Pacquaio (thats only because he beat a lot of fighters I really liked) and I never bought him as the guy who would dethrone Floyd. I always thought it was lame that he made guys come down and meet him at a catch weight.

But that being said, what he accomplished over the last 7 years or so is nothing short of incredible. Pacquiao is a legend in the sport and has a solid argument for top 10 p4p of all time IMHO.

For him to come from 130 and a year or two later be steamrolling 140, 147, and 154lbers is just remarkable.

[Master]

If Pac fought JMM after he had beaten ODH then Pac Man would have been firm favourite to win. He was on a impressive roll and was probably at his peak of his powers. Manny would always have stylistic problems with JMM but would have got the victory because JMM did not look impressive at a welterweight when he fought Floyd at welterweight.

[Beanflicker]

Manny would always have stylistic problems with JMM but would have got the victory because JMM did not look impressive at a welterweight when he fought Floyd at welterweight.

I think JMM looked like shit against Floyd for stylistic/skill reasons, not because of the weight. Floyd didn't use his size advantage to beat JMM, he out-"little guyed" the little guy with speed and skill.

[AdamGB]

It's amazing what one bad loss can do to a career. Before Marquez 3, people were talking about Pac like he was the new and improved Henry Armstrong, and he was a top 5 guy of all time, ect.

Now he's a guy who was overrated and chose convenient catch weights to ambush his opponents (and I'm not even saying that's entirely untrue.)

Several people said the latter.

[CFH]

It's amazing what one bad loss can do to a career. Before Marquez 3, people were talking about Pac like he was the new and improved Henry Armstrong, and he was a top 5 guy of all time, ect.

Now he's a guy who was overrated and chose convenient catch weights to ambush his opponents (and I'm not even saying that's entirely untrue.)

Both can be true. Pacquiao is an great fighter who has accomplished some very impressive things. However, since the ODH fight the cards have pretty much always been stacked in his favour. That doesn't mean what he managed to do isn't great, but it is the reality of the situation.

He could get KO'd 5 times in a row at this point and would still be an atg in my mind.

[erics44]

so to summarise i think barring a KO pac struggles with marquez but is slightly better over the distance and that would be the same at any point in their carears

what do you think?

I agree with that.
Marquez needs the ko all the time to win.

do you agree with the controversy of the 3rd fight?

i didnt see it live and from reading the press and forums after the fight it seemed pac had been gifted

I think they gave it to pac due to the aggression. It could have went either way if im being honest.

Whenever these guys fight its always close.

When they fought for the 3rd time pacs camp were so cocky as they were used to the weight and everything and they fought it would be so easy.

I even remember alex ariza saying something like even "God cant help marquez."

i watched it a couple of days after and thought pac deserved it on agression

perhaps marquez won a couple of rounds more clearly but i think pac won the majority

pacs camp seemed very confident this time too, i think the emphasis on getting the KO from his camp lost pac the fight

[Beanflicker]

i watched it a couple of days after and thought pac deserved it on agression

I hate when guys get the nod for aggression. Boxing is supposed to be the sweet science, the art of hitting without being hit. Effective aggressiveness is one thing, but if a guy is throwing and missing a lot, I don't think you should win the fight on that.

Marquez outfoxed him, plain and simple.

[ruthless rocco]

pac's accomplishments over the years have been nothing short of incredible. he reminds me of lance armstrong and his dominance over the sport of cycling.

no challenge too big, no opponents too strong... no doubt achieved with dedication, hard work and natural talent.

[DavilaJones]

I'll say this though, ever since his KO loss there has been far less visceral hatred of Manny on this forum as well as many others. I wonder if Floyd were to lose, would people be kind towards him too all of the sudden?

As for the original question. I think Manual would always bring trouble to Manny same way Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler were the antithesis of one another.

[p4pking]

You have to remember here that Marquez didn't first look nearly as effective above 140 as he has over the last year and a half or so. If he'd taken on Pacquiao at welterweight right after he was going life or death with Katsidis and Juan Diaz at 135, I think there's a good chance he wouldn't have been strong enough or had the punch to handle him the same way. Not to say it wouldn't have still been a hard fight, but it probably would've looked more like the 2nd(which I thought Manny won) than the 3rd at that time imo.
However, hate to say I'd put money on neither men having been clean fighters over the last few years, so the timing of their moving up in weight is almost a moot point imo. Bottom line is Marquez has Pacquiaos number but not the raw tools or athletecism, it's a coin toss every time assuming they both prepared the right way.
As an aside, does anyone think Marquez could've really performed on the same level that Pacquiao did against the "handpicked" opponents he took on during his tear up the weights? Aside from the corpse of De La Hoya, I think Marquez may well have lost to every single opponent Manny fought aside from him above lightweight.

[imp]

pac's accomplishments over the years have been nothing short of incredible. he reminds me of lance armstrong and his dominance over the sport of cycling.

no challenge too big, no opponents too strong... no doubt achieved with dedication, hard work and natural talent.

Lol. Lance armstrong?