Ali vs Holmes: what could have been!

[ICB]

Ali its definite now, Ferdie Pacheco has said that a doctor from Nevada came out 6 weeks before the fight to Ali's training camp and began giving Ali injections in the thigh. Wali Muhammad his dear friend and Angelo Dundee both asked Ali what it was and Ali said "it was my vitamins". But later in the week Wali Muhammad approached the Nevada doctor who was coming every 3 days to give the injections and asked what it was. The doctor told Wali that it was thyroid medication, and that Ali appeared to have a swollen thyroid gland. The injections were only going to continue for 2 weeks. But after receiving the first 3 injections during week one, Ali complained to Dundee that he could no longer jog more than a mile without stopping or getting winded. And in the 2nd week, Ali twice had a hard time getting up the steps for 2 sparring sessions. He was also really getting hit hard and often in sparring and was unable to block or parry half of the blows atleast, according to Dundee. After the 2 weeks of injections, the same doctor then gave Muhammad ali roughly 2 dozen thyroid pills called Pure synthetic thyroxine (T4), and is taken twice a day. The dosage will vary by patient. The branded forms of T4 are Synthroid®, Levoxyl®, Levothyroid® and Unithroid®. Ali continued calling them his "vitamins" when questioned, and refused to stop taking them. He said to Wali that part of his psychological strategy to psych out Holmes was to appear as he did at age 25, when he weighed 215.

Totally drained and dehydrated, I thought he fought rather well. What could have been had Ali not done this horrendous thing to himself? Would he have had a shot at beating Holmes? I would definitely increase his chances. He was shot by the 6th round, had a great 7th round, totally outclassing Holmes in the 7th round, it was sad to see him pull up from out of nowhere enough energy to win that round and outclass Holmes in the 7th. Really sad to imagine what might have been in that fight. Watch the 7th round, it is heartbreaking to see him win it, Holmes was embarrassed in that round and got really pissed of afte3r Ali landed so many double jabs snapping Holmes' head back.

Outclassed Homes in one round ? from my memory Holmes destroyed him in every single round, and if Ali did win a round it was because Holmes let him because he had too much respect for Ali, he actually went easier on him.

No version of the 70's Ali would beat Holmes IMO, especially not the version that needed 2 fights to beat Leon Spinks. Does the 60's Ali have a great chance ? yes i think you'd have to make Ali a slight favourite. But the 70's version ? i don't think so.

[brocktonblockbust]

1971 MSG Ali whips Holmes all night. What could Holmes hit Ali with that night, if Frazier's hooks couldnt do him in? 1974 Ali whips Holmes too. If Foreman's shots at Ali laying on the ropes couldnt debilitate the great man, no way Holmes shots would.

[TitoFan]

As a twist to a famous (or infamous) quote by Holmes:



A prime Holmes wouldn't have been fit to carry a prime Ali's jock!

[IamInuit]

Ali was tea-bagged by King and Holmes. Holmes was both Ali's apprentice and chief sparring partner for close to 5 years. Both he and fellow scumbag Don King knew dam well about Ali's crumbling condition. Sorry but I don't buy the injection analogy. I blamed Holmes more then King for years because of principle but today looking back part of me wonders of the choice he had. A young family and probably living in a one bedroom suite or something given the opportunity to make 3 million fighting the God of boxing and a crack at the title. Easy for me to say that he sold out morality. I dare say most of us would have done the same thing. Karma got him anyway first with Spinks and being denied the Marciano grail and then getting laid out by Tyson when he was beyond his prime.

King on the other hand is/was a scum bag of the highest order and his whole gig with the Wbc is well documented in the corruption category. Absolute power as they say corrupts absolutely. He probably would have pimped out his own grandmother. He knew w/o a shadow of doubt that Ali was done and already showing early signs of Parkinson's. Not sure what kind of payback is fitting.

[johnmaff36]

Ali was tea-bagged by King and Holmes. Holmes was both Ali's apprentice and chief sparring partner for close to 5 years. Both he and fellow scumbag Don King knew dam well about Ali's crumbling condition. Sorry but I don't buy the injection analogy. I blamed Holmes more then King for years because of principle but today looking back part of me wonders of the choice he had. A young family and probably living in a one bedroom suite or something given the opportunity to make 3 million fighting the God of boxing and a crack at the title. Easy for me to say that he sold out morality. I dare say most of us would have done the same thing. Karma got him anyway first with Spinks and being denied the Marciano grail and then getting laid out by Tyson when he was beyond his prime.

King on the other hand is/was a scum bag of the highest order and his whole gig with the Wbc is well documented in the corruption category. Absolute power as they say corrupts absolutely. He probably would have pimped out his own grandmother. He knew w/o a shadow of doubt that Ali was done and already showing early signs of Parkinson's. Not sure what kind of payback is fitting.

sorry mate but you musta got something mixed up. Holmes had a crack at the, and won, the title 2 and a half years earlier against norton and was making his 7th or 8th defence. He was long gone from a 1 bedroom shack.

ive heard it claimed that Ali recieved $50,000 in cash from King, given by a mutual friend (jeremiah shabazz or lloyd price) in return for Ali to sign a document withdrawing his claim against king for non payment of his purse for the holmes fight. An utter, utter scumbag. I suggest, if your interested, you read jack neufields book 'The life and crimes of don king'.

[IamInuit]

Ali was tea-bagged by King and Holmes. Holmes was both Ali's apprentice and chief sparring partner for close to 5 years. Both he and fellow scumbag Don King knew dam well about Ali's crumbling condition. Sorry but I don't buy the injection analogy. I blamed Holmes more then King for years because of principle but today looking back part of me wonders of the choice he had. A young family and probably living in a one bedroom suite or something given the opportunity to make 3 million fighting the God of boxing and a crack at the title. Easy for me to say that he sold out morality. I dare say most of us would have done the same thing. Karma got him anyway first with Spinks and being denied the Marciano grail and then getting laid out by Tyson when he was beyond his prime.

King on the other hand is/was a scum bag of the highest order and his whole gig with the Wbc is well documented in the corruption category. Absolute power as they say corrupts absolutely. He probably would have pimped out his own grandmother. He knew w/o a shadow of doubt that Ali was done and already showing early signs of Parkinson's. Not sure what kind of payback is fitting.

sorry mate but you musta got something mixed up. Holmes had a crack at the, and won, the title 2 and a half years earlier against norton and was making his 7th or 8th defence. He was long gone from a 1 bedroom shack.

ive heard it claimed that Ali recieved $50,000 in cash from King, given by a mutual friend (jeremiah shabazz or lloyd price) in return for Ali to sign a document withdrawing his claim against king for non payment of his purse for the holmes fight. An utter, utter scumbag. I suggest, if your interested, you read jack neufields book 'The life and crimes of don king'.

I was being sarcastic. That was Holmes first fight over 6 figures I believe and Holmes is on record saying that he did it for the coinage. Its actually hard to believe that King has managed to stay alive.
Must have antenna like street smarts.

[johnmaff36]

Ali was tea-bagged by King and Holmes. Holmes was both Ali's apprentice and chief sparring partner for close to 5 years. Both he and fellow scumbag Don King knew dam well about Ali's crumbling condition. Sorry but I don't buy the injection analogy. I blamed Holmes more then King for years because of principle but today looking back part of me wonders of the choice he had. A young family and probably living in a one bedroom suite or something given the opportunity to make 3 million fighting the God of boxing and a crack at the title. Easy for me to say that he sold out morality. I dare say most of us would have done the same thing. Karma got him anyway first with Spinks and being denied the Marciano grail and then getting laid out by Tyson when he was beyond his prime.

King on the other hand is/was a scum bag of the highest order and his whole gig with the Wbc is well documented in the corruption category. Absolute power as they say corrupts absolutely. He probably would have pimped out his own grandmother. He knew w/o a shadow of doubt that Ali was done and already showing early signs of Parkinson's. Not sure what kind of payback is fitting.

sorry mate but you musta got something mixed up. Holmes had a crack at the, and won, the title 2 and a half years earlier against norton and was making his 7th or 8th defence. He was long gone from a 1 bedroom shack.

ive heard it claimed that Ali recieved $50,000 in cash from King, given by a mutual friend (jeremiah shabazz or lloyd price) in return for Ali to sign a document withdrawing his claim against king for non payment of his purse for the holmes fight. An utter, utter scumbag. I suggest, if your interested, you read jack neufields book 'The life and crimes of don king'.

I was being sarcastic. That was Holmes first fight over 6 figures I believe and Holmes is on record saying that he did it for the coinage. Its actually hard to believe that King has managed to stay alive.
Must have antenna like street smarts.

True, though he did get put in hospital for a week after a kicking he got at a hotel by people/friends who knew Ali and the stroke he pulled on him

[Master]

1971 MSG Ali whips Holmes all night. What could Holmes hit Ali with that night, if Frazier's hooks couldnt do him in? 1974 Ali whips Holmes too. If Foreman's shots at Ali laying on the ropes couldnt debilitate the great man, no way Holmes shots would.

I agree 1971 Ali may have beaten Holmes or maybe 74 version that beat George.

[Dark Lord Al]

It was a mismatch , but Clay was his usual loud mouth self .
I liked Holmes as a fighter he was top draw.

[brocktonblockbust]

I liked Holmes too. But what can be seen in the Ali fight in 1980 is that Holmes was not in the same class as Ali. Watch the 7th round. Ali is able to throw and land jabs from every angle, leaning down, leaning left, leaning right, double jabs to the body, double jabs to the head, jabbing standing straight up, jabbing while retreating---at one point Holmes was getting embarrassed by the jabs, he got really angry after about 14 of them landed crisp, and he grabbed and shoved Ali and even Howard Cosell points it out, that Ali still had the Wizardry left in him, albeit slower and less powerful. The 7th round in my opinion proves who was a better fighter than who. Ali dehydrated and running out of gas and taking shots on the ropes and his legs out of coordination with each other due to early-onset Parkinson's does NOT show Holmes to be the better fighter.

Imagine 1967 Clay against Holmes. Clay by KO in 7.

[Gandalf]

Fighters do take a breather, I couldn't really read too much into a single round. Ali was shot and that was it, prime for prime it is an Ali win and fairly comfortably so.

[Master]

Fighters do take a breather, I couldn't really read too much into a single round. Ali was shot and that was it, prime for prime it is an Ali win and fairly comfortably so.

Agreed just because Ali got some shots in the 7th round does not really mean much in reality. Tyson toyed with Holmes to the extent that Holmes started getting cocky and messing about at the start of the 4th round he was dancing around. You know what happened then.

[johnmaff36]

Ali its definite now, Ferdie Pacheco has said that a doctor from Nevada came out 6 weeks before the fight to Ali's training camp and began giving Ali injections in the thigh. Wali Muhammad his dear friend and Angelo Dundee both asked Ali what it was and Ali said "it was my vitamins". But later in the week Wali Muhammad approached the Nevada doctor who was coming every 3 days to give the injections and asked what it was. The doctor told Wali that it was thyroid medication, and that Ali appeared to have a swollen thyroid gland. The injections were only going to continue for 2 weeks. But after receiving the first 3 injections during week one, Ali complained to Dundee that he could no longer jog more than a mile without stopping or getting winded. And in the 2nd week, Ali twice had a hard time getting up the steps for 2 sparring sessions. He was also really getting hit hard and often in sparring and was unable to block or parry half of the blows atleast, according to Dundee. After the 2 weeks of injections, the same doctor then gave Muhammad ali roughly 2 dozen thyroid pills called Pure synthetic thyroxine (T4), and is taken twice a day. The dosage will vary by patient. The branded forms of T4 are Synthroid®, Levoxyl®, Levothyroid® and Unithroid®. Ali continued calling them his "vitamins" when questioned, and refused to stop taking them. He said to Wali that part of his psychological strategy to psych out Holmes was to appear as he did at age 25, when he weighed 215.

Totally drained and dehydrated, I thought he fought rather well. What could have been had Ali not done this horrendous thing to himself? Would he have had a shot at beating Holmes? I would definitely increase his chances. He was shot by the 6th round, had a great 7th round, totally outclassing Holmes in the 7th round, it was sad to see him pull up from out of nowhere enough energy to win that round and outclass Holmes in the 7th. Really sad to imagine what might have been in that fight. Watch the 7th round, it is heartbreaking to see him win it, Holmes was embarrassed in that round and got really pissed of afte3r Ali landed so many double jabs snapping Holmes' head back.

Outclassed Homes in one round ? from my memory Holmes destroyed him in every single round, and if Ali did win a round it was because Holmes let him because he had too much respect for Ali, he actually went easier on him.

No version of the 70's Ali would beat Holmes IMO, especially not the version that needed 2 fights to beat Leon Spinks. Does the 60's Ali have a great chance ? yes i think you'd have to make Ali a slight favourite. But the 70's version ? i don't think so.

Well Ali made a case in point by giving larry a whupping in 1 particular sparring session around 74/75 after he got word back that larry had been badmouthing him. So the 'no version of 70s Ali wins' theories out the window.

I agree with the rest of your post though. It was sending a lamb to the slaughter. No what coulda beens about it, Holmes at that time was always gonna beat a shell of Ali. Great fighter Holmes was and the more stories ive heard about him from people who have trained at his gym, the more i like him. Apparently hes a real decent guy although you wouldnt know it with some of the interviews hes done. But Ali was the better fighter, gave rematches, unified the titles and didnt do non-title fights as champion, 3 things that go against larry in my opinion

[ICB]

Ali its definite now, Ferdie Pacheco has said that a doctor from Nevada came out 6 weeks before the fight to Ali's training camp and began giving Ali injections in the thigh. Wali Muhammad his dear friend and Angelo Dundee both asked Ali what it was and Ali said "it was my vitamins". But later in the week Wali Muhammad approached the Nevada doctor who was coming every 3 days to give the injections and asked what it was. The doctor told Wali that it was thyroid medication, and that Ali appeared to have a swollen thyroid gland. The injections were only going to continue for 2 weeks. But after receiving the first 3 injections during week one, Ali complained to Dundee that he could no longer jog more than a mile without stopping or getting winded. And in the 2nd week, Ali twice had a hard time getting up the steps for 2 sparring sessions. He was also really getting hit hard and often in sparring and was unable to block or parry half of the blows atleast, according to Dundee. After the 2 weeks of injections, the same doctor then gave Muhammad ali roughly 2 dozen thyroid pills called Pure synthetic thyroxine (T4), and is taken twice a day. The dosage will vary by patient. The branded forms of T4 are Synthroid®, Levoxyl®, Levothyroid® and Unithroid®. Ali continued calling them his "vitamins" when questioned, and refused to stop taking them. He said to Wali that part of his psychological strategy to psych out Holmes was to appear as he did at age 25, when he weighed 215.

Totally drained and dehydrated, I thought he fought rather well. What could have been had Ali not done this horrendous thing to himself? Would he have had a shot at beating Holmes? I would definitely increase his chances. He was shot by the 6th round, had a great 7th round, totally outclassing Holmes in the 7th round, it was sad to see him pull up from out of nowhere enough energy to win that round and outclass Holmes in the 7th. Really sad to imagine what might have been in that fight. Watch the 7th round, it is heartbreaking to see him win it, Holmes was embarrassed in that round and got really pissed of afte3r Ali landed so many double jabs snapping Holmes' head back.

Outclassed Homes in one round ? from my memory Holmes destroyed him in every single round, and if Ali did win a round it was because Holmes let him because he had too much respect for Ali, he actually went easier on him.

No version of the 70's Ali would beat Holmes IMO, especially not the version that needed 2 fights to beat Leon Spinks. Does the 60's Ali have a great chance ? yes i think you'd have to make Ali a slight favourite. But the 70's version ? i don't think so.

Well Ali made a case in point by giving larry a whupping in 1 particular sparring session around 74/75 after he got word back that larry had been badmouthing him. So the 'no version of 70s Ali wins' theories out the window.

I agree with the rest of your post though. It was sending a lamb to the slaughter. No what coulda beens about it, Holmes at that time was always gonna beat a shell of Ali. Great fighter Holmes was and the more stories ive heard about him from people who have trained at his gym, the more i like him. Apparently hes a real decent guy although you wouldnt know it with some of the interviews hes done. But Ali was the better fighter, gave rematches, unified the titles and didnt do non-title fights as champion, 3 things that go against larry in my opinion

I've heard loads of different stories regarding sparring stories, and you can't really base much of an opinion regarding sparring sessions. I've heard Carl Thompson wobbled Lennox Lewis in sparring but no one would say Thompson would beat Lewis.

Plus Larry Holmes wasn't in his prime at that point, his prime was 78-81. I do think people are overrating Muhammad Ali on here. I mean some people are suggesting Muhammad Ali would KO Larry Holmes in 7 rounds ?

Larry Holmes had one of the best chins in Heavyweight divison, and is probably top 5 Heavyweight of all time yet people are saying he gets destroyed by Ali ?

And people are using Joe Frazier as an example ? they fight nothing alike and Holmes is 4 inches taller than Frazier.

Im agreeing a prime Ali in 60's wins, but destroying Holmes ? never in a million years.

[johnmaff36]

Ali its definite now, Ferdie Pacheco has said that a doctor from Nevada came out 6 weeks before the fight to Ali's training camp and began giving Ali injections in the thigh. Wali Muhammad his dear friend and Angelo Dundee both asked Ali what it was and Ali said "it was my vitamins". But later in the week Wali Muhammad approached the Nevada doctor who was coming every 3 days to give the injections and asked what it was. The doctor told Wali that it was thyroid medication, and that Ali appeared to have a swollen thyroid gland. The injections were only going to continue for 2 weeks. But after receiving the first 3 injections during week one, Ali complained to Dundee that he could no longer jog more than a mile without stopping or getting winded. And in the 2nd week, Ali twice had a hard time getting up the steps for 2 sparring sessions. He was also really getting hit hard and often in sparring and was unable to block or parry half of the blows atleast, according to Dundee. After the 2 weeks of injections, the same doctor then gave Muhammad ali roughly 2 dozen thyroid pills called Pure synthetic thyroxine (T4), and is taken twice a day. The dosage will vary by patient. The branded forms of T4 are Synthroid®, Levoxyl®, Levothyroid® and Unithroid®. Ali continued calling them his "vitamins" when questioned, and refused to stop taking them. He said to Wali that part of his psychological strategy to psych out Holmes was to appear as he did at age 25, when he weighed 215.

Totally drained and dehydrated, I thought he fought rather well. What could have been had Ali not done this horrendous thing to himself? Would he have had a shot at beating Holmes? I would definitely increase his chances. He was shot by the 6th round, had a great 7th round, totally outclassing Holmes in the 7th round, it was sad to see him pull up from out of nowhere enough energy to win that round and outclass Holmes in the 7th. Really sad to imagine what might have been in that fight. Watch the 7th round, it is heartbreaking to see him win it, Holmes was embarrassed in that round and got really pissed of afte3r Ali landed so many double jabs snapping Holmes' head back.

Outclassed Homes in one round ? from my memory Holmes destroyed him in every single round, and if Ali did win a round it was because Holmes let him because he had too much respect for Ali, he actually went easier on him.

No version of the 70's Ali would beat Holmes IMO, especially not the version that needed 2 fights to beat Leon Spinks. Does the 60's Ali have a great chance ? yes i think you'd have to make Ali a slight favourite. But the 70's version ? i don't think so.

Well Ali made a case in point by giving larry a whupping in 1 particular sparring session around 74/75 after he got word back that larry had been badmouthing him. So the 'no version of 70s Ali wins' theories out the window.

I agree with the rest of your post though. It was sending a lamb to the slaughter. No what coulda beens about it, Holmes at that time was always gonna beat a shell of Ali. Great fighter Holmes was and the more stories ive heard about him from people who have trained at his gym, the more i like him. Apparently hes a real decent guy although you wouldnt know it with some of the interviews hes done. But Ali was the better fighter, gave rematches, unified the titles and didnt do non-title fights as champion, 3 things that go against larry in my opinion

I've heard loads of different stories regarding sparring stories, and you can't really base much of an opinion regarding sparring sessions. I've heard Carl Thompson wobbled Lennox Lewis in sparring but no one would say Thompson would beat Lewis.

Plus Larry Holmes wasn't in his prime at that point, his prime was 78-81. I do think people are overrating Muhammad Ali on here. I mean some people are suggesting Muhammad Ali would KO Larry Holmes in 7 rounds ?

Larry Holmes had one of the best chins in Heavyweight divison, and is probably top 5 Heavyweight of all time yet people are saying he gets destroyed by Ali ?

And people are using Joe Frazier as an example ? they fight nothing alike and Holmes is 4 inches taller than Frazier.

Im agreeing a prime Ali in 60's wins, but destroying Holmes ? never in a million years.

I agree with you on sparring stories but this one was well documented. True Larry wasnt in his prime but where is the cut off for this imaginary match-up?? Some say 70s Ali wouldnt have beat Holmes, well which Holmes are we talking about, and more to the point, which 70s Ali are we talking about?? Id imagine larry circa 78/79, which is prime/near prime larry, so im taking him at his best 70s-wise. The Ali question is a bit more difficult. Surely people dont expect it to be the Ali of 77/78, so im gonna take him at his 70s prime, same as i would for holmes, as around 74. I dont think its beyond the realms of possibilty that Ali can get a decision off Larry. He, like you said, certainly aint stopping him or KO'ing him. I was just pointing out to the ones intimating 70s Ali has no chance with Holmes, what had happened between the 2 in a well documented spar that was taken relatively serious. People gotta remember that Ali always found a way more often than not.

And for the record i think larry holmes gives ANYONE a hard nights work and wins a lot lot more than he loses against other ATG heavies. Hes a H2H nightmare but, like i already said, its not completely absurd to think a 70s prime Ali was capable of a points win. That was all i was trying to point out

EDIT. just reread the entire thread. I dont think the guy who mentioned frazier was actually comparing them style-wise. I think he was making a point about power and Alis ability to take a punch, which co-incidently, id put holmes on the same level