What's funny with Larry Holmes reign as champion...

[brocktonblockbust]

I think Holmes would stay away from Marciano all night and pepper him with the jab and then come back with a few stunning right hands, just to keep Marciano off of him and honest.

A Holmes/Marciano fight would go the distance, with Holmes winning a close unanimous decision. In a 12 rounder, scores like 116 to 114. In a 15 rounder, 145 to 143- Marciano may even score a knock down. But he won't win the points.

I think a prime Holmes (on US soil) would have won a very controversial fight against Lewis in his prime. It would be no KO, because Holmes wouldn't let Lewis get that close- and Holmes would back away from Lewis right hand.

Remember, Lewis hardly gave you combo's. Lewis may tag him once or twice during the fight, but then Holmes would suck it up and get on his bike for half a round and counter Lewis- and Lewis wouldn't be able to finish him off in the way a Tyson would have pounced on him.

I don't think Johnson had the skill to beat Holmes at any period. But I give you Louis, Cassius Clay and Holyfield. Holyfield would out-score him how he did in their actual fight- even though I could have scored that fight against an ageing Holmes for Holmes or at least a draw.

HOLMES HAD A STUNNER OF A RIGHT BUT IT WAS NO SLEDGEHAMMER

MARCIANO WILL ALWAYS GO THE DISTANCE MY FRIEND, THERE IS NO DISTANCE TOO FAR

LEWIS DIDNT NEED COMBOS, HE RIPPED OFF VITALI'S FACE WITH ONE SHOT, ITS ENOUGH FOR HIS STYLE

JOHNSON COULD NOT BE BEAT--HE WAS A BITCH--HE WILL FUCK YOU UP PSYCHOLOGICALLY BEFORE YOU EVEN GLOVE-UP, HE WON THE FIGHT, HE IS JACK DOWNTOWN JOHNSON AND HE WILL TAKE YOU DOWNTOWN WITH HIS FUR-HAT AND DIAMOND RING AND FUCK YOU UP THE ASS UNTIL YOU LOVE HIM. BUT TYSON SAID WHAT JOHNSON WAS THINKING BUT NEVER SAID.

[ykdadamaja]

I think Holmes would stay away from Marciano all night and pepper him with the jab and then come back with a few stunning right hands, just to keep Marciano off of him and honest.

A Holmes/Marciano fight would go the distance, with Holmes winning a close unanimous decision. In a 12 rounder, scores like 116 to 114. In a 15 rounder, 145 to 143- Marciano may even score a knock down. But he won't win the points.

I think a prime Holmes (on US soil) would have won a very controversial fight against Lewis in his prime. It would be no KO, because Holmes wouldn't let Lewis get that close- and Holmes would back away from Lewis right hand.

Remember, Lewis hardly gave you combo's. Lewis may tag him once or twice during the fight, but then Holmes would suck it up and get on his bike for half a round and counter Lewis- and Lewis wouldn't be able to finish him off in the way a Tyson would have pounced on him.

I don't think Johnson had the skill to beat Holmes at any period. But I give you Louis, Cassius Clay and Holyfield. Holyfield would out-score him how he did in their actual fight- even though I could have scored that fight against an ageing Holmes for Holmes or at least a draw.

HOLMES HAD A STUNNER OF A RIGHT BUT IT WAS NO SLEDGEHAMMER

MARCIANO WILL ALWAYS GO THE DISTANCE MY FRIEND, THERE IS NO DISTANCE TOO FAR

LEWIS DIDNT NEED COMBOS, HE RIPPED OFF VITALI'S FACE WITH ONE SHOT, ITS ENOUGH FOR HIS STYLE

JOHNSON COULD NOT BE BEAT--HE WAS A BITCH--HE WILL FUCK YOU UP PSYCHOLOGICALLY BEFORE YOU EVEN GLOVE-UP, HE WON THE FIGHT, HE IS JACK DOWNTOWN JOHNSON AND HE WILL TAKE YOU DOWNTOWN WITH HIS FUR-HAT AND DIAMOND RING AND FUCK YOU UP THE ASS UNTIL YOU LOVE HIM. BUT TYSON SAID WHAT JOHNSON WAS THINKING BUT NEVER SAID.

I know Holmes didn't have bone-crushing power in the right hand, it was enough to dizzy you and stun you into backing off and not wanting more. Marciano would lunge forward with a few left hooks but wouldn't be able to touch Holmes with it to the point where he would get a ko.

Holmes would simply just out-score Marciano. Just like Walcott did before he got caught.

[brocktonblockbust]

may well be. may well be. Larry at 225 pounds, 6 foot 3, 63 inch reach---Rocco at 5 foot 10, 184 pounds, 67 inch reach.......hmmmmmmm

[IamInuit]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

[Master]

Holmes slaughters Marciano in reality.

Holmes fought a peak Holyfield close so a younger versions easily beats Evander.

get real lads.

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes slaughters Marciano in reality.

Holmes fought a peak Holyfield close so a younger versions easily beats Evander.

get real lads.

Thank you. If Holyfield had fought an early 80's Holmes he would have lost on points, big time.

And let's not forget that Foreman didn't want to fight Holmes. Holmes was trying to make that fight well into the early 90's. For nearly 20 years Holmes wanted to make the Foreman fight. Foreman didn't want it!

[Master]

Holmes slaughters Marciano in reality.

Holmes fought a peak Holyfield close so a younger versions easily beats Evander.

get real lads.

Thank you. If Holyfield had fought an early 80's Holmes he would have lost on points, big time.

And let's not forget that Foreman didn't want to fight Holmes. Holmes was trying to make that fight well into the early 90's. For nearly 20 years Holmes wanted to make the Foreman fight. Foreman didn't want it!

George definitely avoided Holmes he knew Larry could handled whatever Foreman could throw at him.

[ykdadamaja]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

You have go to be out of your mind. In fact, you can change the subject name to Wladimir Klitschko and the other names to the other bums/hasbeens/inexperienced guys he faced and it can stand for the same thing!

LOL....

Holmes cleaned up the old guys who refused to leave that were carry overs from the late 60's and early 70's, and he killed babies in the womb before they got to big for their britches who all went on to become champions.

Page, Dokes and Tubbs didn't fight Holmes, as it appears, because of politics. They were all WBA Champions and it all seemed odd.

Holmes would have SMOKED Dokes, Page and Cotzee. And you know it!

[THE THIRD MAN]

Holmes was a great HW champ, he was unlucky to have fought at a time just after the golden era of the 60's and 70's. I rank him a top 10 Heavyweight champ, (about 9th or 10th) but he does himself no favours by his continual whining and bitterness. He was lucky to beat Norton and how he survived that right hand knockdown of Shavers is anybody's guess. ( i give him due credit for that one alone) At the end of the day he beat everyone they put in front of him and that's all you can do, Spinks was his nemesis, styles make make fights and Spinks was just too awkward for him. In comparison he beats Lewis and Wlad any night of the week. Larry should just stop his bleating and take his career as it was, it was a great one.

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes was a great HW champ, he was unlucky to have fought at a time just after the golden era of the 60's and 70's. I rank him a top 10 Heavyweight champ, (about 9th or 10th) but he does himself no favours by his continual whining and bitterness. He was lucky to beat Norton and how he survived that right hand knockdown of Shavers is anybody's guess. ( i give him due credit for that one alone) At the end of the day he beat everyone they put in front of him and that's all you can do, Spinks was his nemesis, styles make make fights and Spinks was just too awkward for him. In comparison he beats Lewis and Wlad any night of the week. Larry should just stop his bleating and take his career as it was, it was a great one.

And that's pretty fair. I think everyone can pretty much admit that Ali WAS the greatest. By far... and, to be honest, I rank Vitali better than I do Wlad. Seriously!

Holmes can beat Wlad but he wouldn't beat Vitali. Holmes can beat Lewis in a prime for prime fight. He would simply out-score Lewis. And Lewis knows it if he asks himself seriously.

[IamInuit]

Holmes was a great HW champ, he was unlucky to have fought at a time just after the golden era of the 60's and 70's. I rank him a top 10 Heavyweight champ, (about 9th or 10th) but he does himself no favours by his continual whining and bitterness. He was lucky to beat Norton and how he survived that right hand knockdown of Shavers is anybody's guess. ( i give him due credit for that one alone) At the end of the day he beat everyone they put in front of him and that's all you can do, Spinks was his nemesis, styles make make fights and Spinks was just too awkward for him. In comparison he beats Lewis and Wlad any night of the week. Larry should just stop his bleating and take his career as it was, it was a great one.

Please... Lewis stomps him a new mud hole. Larry Holmes never faced anyone even near Lewis.

[TitoFan]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Fucking A.... bro!!!

Sign me up for the "Larry Holmes is an Overrated, Bitter, Butthurt, Whining Old Man Who Couldn't Carry Rocky Marciano's Jock" club.

[IamInuit]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Fucking A.... bro!!!

Sign me up for the "Larry Holmes is an Overrated, Bitter, Butthurt, Whining Old Man Who Couldn't Carry Rocky Marciano's Jock" club.

I'm not going to shit on the guy but after closing in on 20 years seeing this almost worship like attitude on this guy on forums every once in awhile its good to just take an honest look. It took me a couple of hours to put that together this morning while working and I know it was long winded but if anyone wants to challenge the facts then I welcome them. Seems he's an untouchable for some reason. The line between objectivity and subjectively with certain fighters remains fine.

Its ok to kick the snot out of Wlad which I do and put his record under a microscope when he has dominated men in their prime based on the quality of the division but lay off Larry.

We can question the validity of Marciano beating an ancient Charles, Moore, Wlacott and Louis but its not ok to examine the history of Holmes using the same criteria.

I do think Larry got shafted in the first Spinks fight and it was an inside job because he would have tied Marciano so I can see some of his bitterness but he played the system with King like a fiddle regardless of how many people talk around it. Karma is a bitch.

Thanks for the response.

[TitoFan]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Fucking A.... bro!!!

Sign me up for the "Larry Holmes is an Overrated, Bitter, Butthurt, Whining Old Man Who Couldn't Carry Rocky Marciano's Jock" club.

I'm not going to shit on the guy but after closing in on 20 years seeing this almost worship like attitude on this guy on forums every once in awhile its good to just take an honest look. It took me a couple of hours to put that together this morning while working and I know it was long winded but if anyone wants to challenge the facts then I welcome them. Seems he's an untouchable for some reason. The line between objectivity and subjectively with certain fighters remains fine.

Its ok to kick the snot out of Wlad which I do and put his record under a microscope when he has dominated men in their prime based on the quality of the division but lay off Larry.

We can question the validity of Marciano beating an ancient Charles, Moore, Wlacott and Louis but its not ok to examine the history of Holmes using the same criteria.

I do think Larry got shafted in the first Spinks fight and it was an inside job because he would have tied Marciano so I can see some of his bitterness but he played the system with King like a fiddle regardless of how many people talk around it. Karma is a bitch.

Thanks for the response.

I admit to being less objective about Larry than you. And kudos for the well explained facts on the guy. I too tire of the worship poured on Holmes, and the untouchable force field he seems to have around him. But I've hated the guy ever since I can remember, and I think he was a pretty good champion... but that's it. I was ecstatic when he got flattened by Mike Tyson..... payback for his beating up on old man Ali, and his disrespectful comments on the already dead Rocky Marciano. All Larry ever did was whine about not getting enough attention because he was black. Fuck Larry Holmes.

[ICB]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Shavers got a rematch vs Holmes because he destroyed Ken Norton in 1 round, its funny you say Berbick couldn't fight his way out of a bathtub. Yet he dominated Greg Page, and beat Pinklon Thomas. Two fighters you accuse Larry Holmes of not fighting, when in reality there prime was short especially Page did he even have a prime ?

Again you slate Holmes for fighting Cooney, yet that was the biggest HW fight that could of happened at the time. Cooney also destroyed Young, Lyle, Norton. Lyle another fighter you slate Holmes for not fighting yet Cooney destroyed him in a round with a body shot if i remember rightly.

You say young/inexperienced Tim Witherspoon, yet Tim Witherspoon never had a better performance than the one he had against Larry Holmes. So your comment doesn't really make sense, despite the lack of fights that was a prime Tim Witherspoon.

James Bonecrusher Smith got his shot because he beat Frank Bruno, the winner of the fight was to get a shot at Larry Holmes.

People underrate Michael Spinks because of his one loss to Mike Tyson, he is IMO one of the greatest Light Heavyweight's of all time. And was a pretty good Heavyweight to boot, i felt the 1st fight could of gone either way, but what you fail to mention is that many experts. Believe Larry Holmes was robbed blind in there rematch as do i.

You can't really fault him for losing to a prime Mike Tyson, while being inactive 38/39 at the time and not being in good form coming off two losses.

You don't give Larry Holmes much credit do you ? Ray Mercer was in his prime having just destroyed Tommy Morrison, Larry Holmes was the underdog and dominated a good solid young Heavyweight at 42 years old that deserves some respect no ?

A faded Evander Holyfield ? since when is a 1992 version of Evander Holyfield a faded version ? don't you mean a prime version ?

You also fail to mention the McCall vs Holmes fight was very close, that easily could of gone to Holmes and he was maybe 1 point away from equaling George Foreman's record at 45. Lets also not forget McCall had just beat Lennox Lewis, and infact i had Holmes winning the fight.

Im not saying Holmes opposition was fantastic, but you only beat what's infront of you. And he did beat some quality fighters, and he showed tremondous heart many times in his career, while displaying some of the best skills ever from any Heavyweight champion, which is why he's ranked high in the Heavyweight all time rankings.

Finally Holmes vs Foreman could of never of happened in the 70's Holmes didn't become champion, until 78 where as Foreman had already retired after losing to Young. Young also lost to Norton which is why Norton vs Holmes happened.