What's funny with Larry Holmes reign as champion...

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes slaughters Marciano in reality.

Holmes fought a peak Holyfield close so a younger versions easily beats Evander.

get real lads.

Thank you. If Holyfield had fought an early 80's Holmes he would have lost on points, big time.

And let's not forget that Foreman didn't want to fight Holmes. Holmes was trying to make that fight well into the early 90's. For nearly 20 years Holmes wanted to make the Foreman fight. Foreman didn't want it!

[Master]

Holmes slaughters Marciano in reality.

Holmes fought a peak Holyfield close so a younger versions easily beats Evander.

get real lads.

Thank you. If Holyfield had fought an early 80's Holmes he would have lost on points, big time.

And let's not forget that Foreman didn't want to fight Holmes. Holmes was trying to make that fight well into the early 90's. For nearly 20 years Holmes wanted to make the Foreman fight. Foreman didn't want it!

George definitely avoided Holmes he knew Larry could handled whatever Foreman could throw at him.

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes slaughters Marciano in reality.

Holmes fought a peak Holyfield close so a younger versions easily beats Evander.

get real lads.

Thank you. If Holyfield had fought an early 80's Holmes he would have lost on points, big time.

And let's not forget that Foreman didn't want to fight Holmes. Holmes was trying to make that fight well into the early 90's. For nearly 20 years Holmes wanted to make the Foreman fight. Foreman didn't want it!

George definitely avoided Holmes he knew Larry could handled whatever Foreman could throw at him.

... and you wanna hear something that's funny? Holmes is lobbying for a senior citizen boxing league. hahahaha... still claiming that he wants to fight Foreman. hahaaahhaah.....


But, it's obvious Foreman couldn't box. He was an average boxer. Foreman is and always will be a puncher-mauler. If he hits you once, he just continues to maul you until you tap out.

But, as the case with Ali and Young, put a guy in their that can box and move- he had trouble.

The reason Frazier got smoked was because Frazier liked to come forward, he couldn't adjust. Sad for him.

[TitoFan]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Fucking A.... bro!!!

Sign me up for the "Larry Holmes is an Overrated, Bitter, Butthurt, Whining Old Man Who Couldn't Carry Rocky Marciano's Jock" club.

[IamInuit]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Fucking A.... bro!!!

Sign me up for the "Larry Holmes is an Overrated, Bitter, Butthurt, Whining Old Man Who Couldn't Carry Rocky Marciano's Jock" club.

I'm not going to shit on the guy but after closing in on 20 years seeing this almost worship like attitude on this guy on forums every once in awhile its good to just take an honest look. It took me a couple of hours to put that together this morning while working and I know it was long winded but if anyone wants to challenge the facts then I welcome them. Seems he's an untouchable for some reason. The line between objectivity and subjectively with certain fighters remains fine.

Its ok to kick the snot out of Wlad which I do and put his record under a microscope when he has dominated men in their prime based on the quality of the division but lay off Larry.

We can question the validity of Marciano beating an ancient Charles, Moore, Wlacott and Louis but its not ok to examine the history of Holmes using the same criteria.

I do think Larry got shafted in the first Spinks fight and it was an inside job because he would have tied Marciano so I can see some of his bitterness but he played the system with King like a fiddle regardless of how many people talk around it. Karma is a bitch.

Thanks for the response.

[ICB]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Shavers got a rematch vs Holmes because he destroyed Ken Norton in 1 round, its funny you say Berbick couldn't fight his way out of a bathtub. Yet he dominated Greg Page, and beat Pinklon Thomas. Two fighters you accuse Larry Holmes of not fighting, when in reality there prime was short especially Page did he even have a prime ?

Again you slate Holmes for fighting Cooney, yet that was the biggest HW fight that could of happened at the time. Cooney also destroyed Young, Lyle, Norton. Lyle another fighter you slate Holmes for not fighting yet Cooney destroyed him in a round with a body shot if i remember rightly.

You say young/inexperienced Tim Witherspoon, yet Tim Witherspoon never had a better performance than the one he had against Larry Holmes. So your comment doesn't really make sense, despite the lack of fights that was a prime Tim Witherspoon.

James Bonecrusher Smith got his shot because he beat Frank Bruno, the winner of the fight was to get a shot at Larry Holmes.

People underrate Michael Spinks because of his one loss to Mike Tyson, he is IMO one of the greatest Light Heavyweight's of all time. And was a pretty good Heavyweight to boot, i felt the 1st fight could of gone either way, but what you fail to mention is that many experts. Believe Larry Holmes was robbed blind in there rematch as do i.

You can't really fault him for losing to a prime Mike Tyson, while being inactive 38/39 at the time and not being in good form coming off two losses.

You don't give Larry Holmes much credit do you ? Ray Mercer was in his prime having just destroyed Tommy Morrison, Larry Holmes was the underdog and dominated a good solid young Heavyweight at 42 years old that deserves some respect no ?

A faded Evander Holyfield ? since when is a 1992 version of Evander Holyfield a faded version ? don't you mean a prime version ?

You also fail to mention the McCall vs Holmes fight was very close, that easily could of gone to Holmes and he was maybe 1 point away from equaling George Foreman's record at 45. Lets also not forget McCall had just beat Lennox Lewis, and infact i had Holmes winning the fight.

Im not saying Holmes opposition was fantastic, but you only beat what's infront of you. And he did beat some quality fighters, and he showed tremondous heart many times in his career, while displaying some of the best skills ever from any Heavyweight champion, which is why he's ranked high in the Heavyweight all time rankings.

Finally Holmes vs Foreman could of never of happened in the 70's Holmes didn't become champion, until 78 where as Foreman had already retired after losing to Young. Young also lost to Norton which is why Norton vs Holmes happened.

[TitoFan]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

Fucking A.... bro!!!

Sign me up for the "Larry Holmes is an Overrated, Bitter, Butthurt, Whining Old Man Who Couldn't Carry Rocky Marciano's Jock" club.

I'm not going to shit on the guy but after closing in on 20 years seeing this almost worship like attitude on this guy on forums every once in awhile its good to just take an honest look. It took me a couple of hours to put that together this morning while working and I know it was long winded but if anyone wants to challenge the facts then I welcome them. Seems he's an untouchable for some reason. The line between objectivity and subjectively with certain fighters remains fine.

Its ok to kick the snot out of Wlad which I do and put his record under a microscope when he has dominated men in their prime based on the quality of the division but lay off Larry.

We can question the validity of Marciano beating an ancient Charles, Moore, Wlacott and Louis but its not ok to examine the history of Holmes using the same criteria.

I do think Larry got shafted in the first Spinks fight and it was an inside job because he would have tied Marciano so I can see some of his bitterness but he played the system with King like a fiddle regardless of how many people talk around it. Karma is a bitch.

Thanks for the response.

I admit to being less objective about Larry than you. And kudos for the well explained facts on the guy. I too tire of the worship poured on Holmes, and the untouchable force field he seems to have around him. But I've hated the guy ever since I can remember, and I think he was a pretty good champion... but that's it. I was ecstatic when he got flattened by Mike Tyson..... payback for his beating up on old man Ali, and his disrespectful comments on the already dead Rocky Marciano. All Larry ever did was whine about not getting enough attention because he was black. Fuck Larry Holmes.

[IamInuit]

I admit to being less objective about Larry than you. And kudos for the well explained facts on the guy. I too tire of the worship poured on Holmes, and the untouchable force field he seems to have around him. But I've hated the guy ever since I can remember, and I think he was a pretty good champion... but that's it. I was ecstatic when he got flattened by Mike Tyson..... payback for his beating up on old man Ali, and his disrespectful comments on the already dead Rocky Marciano. All Larry ever did was whine about not getting enough attention because he was black. Fuck Larry Holmes.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. We are all guilty. Speaking of Tyson, he's another one that benefited from timing. His first 30 fights is a virtual who's who on the soup aile at the grocery store.

I think Larry could have competed in most eras but you cant on the one hand scrutinize the record while at the same time ignore that when it comes toward the direction that you sit. We scrutinize Hopkins middle career as we do Joe Calzaghe and yet Larry's is not even debatable? Nobody can name a fighter Bernard could have fought at 160 that he didn't and nor can anyone name a fighter Joe could have fought that he didn't at 168 but I can name many fighters Holmes could have fought that he didn't and have already done so.

[brocktonblockbust]

Holmes is not overrated

[IamInuit]

Holmes is not overrated

Brilliant retort.

[brocktonblockbust]

Holmes is not overrated

Brilliant retort.

Thanks.

[ykdadamaja]

I admit to being less objective about Larry than you. And kudos for the well explained facts on the guy. I too tire of the worship poured on Holmes, and the untouchable force field he seems to have around him. But I've hated the guy ever since I can remember, and I think he was a pretty good champion... but that's it. I was ecstatic when he got flattened by Mike Tyson..... payback for his beating up on old man Ali, and his disrespectful comments on the already dead Rocky Marciano. All Larry ever did was whine about not getting enough attention because he was black. Fuck Larry Holmes.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. We are all guilty. Speaking of Tyson, he's another one that benefited from timing. His first 30 fights is a virtual who's who on the soup aile at the grocery store.

I think Larry could have competed in most eras but you cant on the one hand scrutinize the record while at the same time ignore that when it comes toward the direction that you sit. We scrutinize Hopkins middle career as we do Joe Calzaghe and yet Larry's is not even debatable? Nobody can name a fighter Bernard could have fought at 160 that he didn't and nor can anyone name a fighter Joe could have fought that he didn't at 168 but I can name many fighters Holmes could have fought that he didn't and have already done so.

Dude, Holmes was the most ducked Heavyweight Champion of all time. The WBA Organization made sure that Dokes, Cotzee and Page did NOT fight Holmes.

Holmes beat Weaver when Weaver was young and then again when Weaver and he were way older- by KO if I can remember.

You can't put the Tyson loss in the mix, because at that time everyone was getting flattened by Tyson. Sure, Bonecrusher went the distance, but he also went the distance with Tyson and lost.

The only thing about Holmes you can be mad about was the fact that he hated the media protrayal of him. Tyson relished his bad-boy image after a while. But Holmes wanted to be the good-guy, the face. He didn't understand... he just boxed and won!

And we aren't talkin' about Calzaghe or Hopkins at this time.

[Mr140]

Larry Holmes had the problem that most great heavies do and that is a weak era. I mean his i say is on level of Tyson or Wlads but his come back gave him some good wins. I Still don't see how people are saying he beat Holyfield based on there fight because pretty clear win for Holyfeild. The top10 can change around a lot but he is in there for sure were i am not sure because after Ali doesnt really matter. Sure the list should have Lewis, Louis, Forman, Tyson and Holyfeild in it but after that kinda of a toss up.

[Beanz]

The answer to the question is probably Don King, Holmes was the best at the weight and he proved it by his longevity and title defences when the other so called champions lost their titles to opponents, drugs politics and laziness.

Holmes finished off the dead weight from the late 60's and early 70's, and taught a lesson to the new kids who tried to own the early and mid 80's- all at the same time creaming guys who were peaking. DESTROYED THEM, never to return!!!

His reign was distinctive. In many respects, better than Louis, Marciano, Ali, Tyson, Lennox or Wlad's reign. He is right when he says he doesn't get his just due, because they didn't give him his just due. Perhaps it was too soon after Ali... Ali's flash and braggadocio? Perhaps it was because he didn't have bone-crushing ko power?

Holmes was thee most SKILLED HW Champion EVER.... better than Ali and certainly better than Wlad. The only HW champion that came close to his skill is Lennox, technically speaking. But Lennox is a far second place in my mind...

Seriously ? No disrespect but a statement like that makes one think maybe your objectivity is obscured by his butt cheeks.

[ykdadamaja]

The answer to the question is probably Don King, Holmes was the best at the weight and he proved it by his longevity and title defences when the other so called champions lost their titles to opponents, drugs politics and laziness.

Holmes finished off the dead weight from the late 60's and early 70's, and taught a lesson to the new kids who tried to own the early and mid 80's- all at the same time creaming guys who were peaking. DESTROYED THEM, never to return!!!

His reign was distinctive. In many respects, better than Louis, Marciano, Ali, Tyson, Lennox or Wlad's reign. He is right when he says he doesn't get his just due, because they didn't give him his just due. Perhaps it was too soon after Ali... Ali's flash and braggadocio? Perhaps it was because he didn't have bone-crushing ko power?

Holmes was thee most SKILLED HW Champion EVER.... better than Ali and certainly better than Wlad. The only HW champion that came close to his skill is Lennox, technically speaking. But Lennox is a far second place in my mind...

Seriously ? No disrespect but a statement like that makes one think maybe your objectivity is obscured by his butt cheeks.

As far as stand up jab, right hand, left and right hooks, Holmes was thee most technically sound HW Champion.