Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy

[Beanflicker]

There are people who actually think Floyd ISN'T a top 25 of all time fighter? Jesus Christ.

If you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, please identify yourself now. I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to know for future reference so I don't waste my time reading your posts.

[Beanflicker]

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

[Rantcatrat]

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

What was Floyd's best win? Or top three wins? Floyd might be a great "in ring talent," but has he fought the level of guys that top twenty-five boxers have faced? Did he ever face anyone on the level of say, Roberto Duran?

[Rantcatrat]

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

Compare their legacies. There are many people who argue with how highly ranked Harry Greb or Joe Gans are on most all-time lists because there aren't much film of them. In this discussion, how do we know how good Floyd's "boxing skills, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, etc." are if he hasn't faced guys that we consider to be great? Like with Greb and Gans, we can only speculate. How can we say Floyd was a better lightweight than Ike Williams when his best performance at lightweight was his rematch with Castillo? It's impossible.

The difference with Floyd is that we could have found out. We can blame it on Bob Arum's strategy with developing boxers for his pre-2007 fights. We can blame it on risk/reward for his post-2007 fights. At the end of the day though, Floyd's competition is what it is.

There is no doubt Floyd is an all-time great, nor that he should be on everyone's list of 100 best fighters. However, when you start comparing the truly great fighters, guys in the top five all-time of each division, I'm pretty sure, and this is where I would like input from the Saddo community, but I'm pretty sure that Floyd's best wins don't match their best wins.

For example, Wladimir Klitschko is effective as a heavyweight. He's big; he's athletic; he has a high boxing IQ; he has good ring generalship. However, who has Wladimir really beat? Does he have any wins that match the wins of great heavyweights? That's why when we rank Wladimir Klitschko, no matter how you think he would have fared against the top 5-10 heavyweights, they rank above him because they have better wins. Is Wladimir's best win David Haye?

Let me ask this: if Floyd beat Sergio Martinez in his next fight, how would you rank that win compared to Floyd's previous wins? In the alternative, if Floyd beat Kosta Tszyu in 2004 or whenever they didn't fight, how would that win rank on Floyd's current ledger? If Floyd had fought and beat Margarito and Cotto in 2007, instead of retiring, how would those wins compare?

[Violent Demise]

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

Compare their legacies. There are many people who argue with how highly ranked Harry Greb or Joe Gans are on most all-time lists because there aren't much film of them. In this discussion, how do we know how good Floyd's "boxing skills, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, etc." are if he hasn't faced guys that we consider to be great? Like with Greb and Gans, we can only speculate. How can we say Floyd was a better lightweight than Ike Williams when his best performance at lightweight was his rematch with Castillo? It's impossible.

The difference with Floyd is that we could have found out. We can blame it on Bob Arum's strategy with developing boxers for his pre-2007 fights. We can blame it on risk/reward for his post-2007 fights. At the end of the day though, Floyd's competition is what it is.

There is no doubt Floyd is an all-time great, nor that he should be on everyone's list of 100 best fighters. However, when you start comparing the truly great fighters, guys in the top five all-time of each division, I'm pretty sure, and this is where I would like input from the Saddo community, but I'm pretty sure that Floyd's best wins don't match their best wins.

For example, Wladimir Klitschko is effective as a heavyweight. He's big; he's athletic; he has a high boxing IQ; he has good ring generalship. However, who has Wladimir really beat? Does he have any wins that match the wins of great heavyweights? That's why when we rank Wladimir Klitschko, no matter how you think he would have fared against the top 5-10 heavyweights, they rank above him because they have better wins. Is Wladimir's best win David Haye?

Let me ask this: if Floyd beat Sergio Martinez in his next fight, how would you rank that win compared to Floyd's previous wins? In the alternative, if Floyd beat Kosta Tszyu in 2004 or whenever they didn't fight, how would that win rank on Floyd's current ledger? If Floyd had fought and beat Margarito and Cotto in 2007, instead of retiring, how would those wins compare?

If Floyd was to beat Martinez next or if he had beaten Cotto or Margarito in 07 I would still rank his win over Corrales as his best ever

[Rantcatrat]

[QUOTE=Violent Demise;1152472]

If Floyd was to beat Martinez next or if he had beaten Cotto or Margarito in 07 I would still rank his win over Corrales as his best ever

Good call @Violent Demise . While I'm not sure that I agree with that statement, I agree that his win over Diego Corrales in 2001 was his career-best win. Corrales was ranked #5 p4p at the time they fought, and many people thought Floyd would lose.

I have a number of questions for you.

Was that win in 2001 at junior lightweight Floyd's best win?

How highly do you rank Corrales compared with other junior lightweights/super featherweights throughout history?

How highly do you rank a victory over Diego Corrales in terms of quality of win? Compare it to wins by other great fighters.

How much differently do you treat Castillo's win over Corrales in their rematch to their epic war? On that same note, how highly do you rank Casamayor's win over Corrales in their third (?) fight?

Even if you think that win would have been better than wins over Martinez at junior middlweight, or Cotto/Margarito in 2007, would those wins not have added a lot to his legacy?

[Violent Demise]

Good call @Violent Demise . While I'm not sure that I agree with that statement, I agree that his win over Diego Corrales in 2001 was his career-best win. Corrales was ranked #5 p4p at the time they fought, and many people thought Floyd would lose.

I have a number of questions for you.

Was that win in 2001 at junior lightweight Floyd's best win?

How highly do you rank Corrales compared with other junior lightweights/super featherweights throughout history?

How highly do you rank a victory over Diego Corrales in terms of quality of win? Compare it to wins by other great fighters.

How much differently do you treat Castillo's win over Corrales in their rematch to their epic war? On that same note, how highly do you rank Casamayor's win over Corrales in their third (?) fight?

Even if you think that win would have been better than wins over Martinez at junior middlweight, or Cotto/Margarito in 2007, would those wins not have added a lot to his legacy?

It might not of been Mayweather's best win opponent wise. But it was clearly his best performance. The way he shut out and pretty much embarrassed Corrales was very impressive.

Not sure where I would rank Corrales in the all time list. I gotta think about that one

I don't treat Castillo win over Corrales any differently. He was overweight. But Corrales agreed to let the fight go on. And come fight night there wasn't much difference in weight.

Corrales was already on the decline going into the Casamayor fight. But so was Casamayor. I've always been partial to Casamayor. So obviously I rank it highly for him

Without a doubt. I won't argue with anybody that says Mayweather's legacy needs improving

[Beanflicker]

I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.

Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.

[Rantcatrat]

I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.

Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.

I don't want to have that argument either because I'm not guy who dislikes Floyd. I didn't intend the threat to devolve into that type of discussion. I wanted a discussion of legacy.

How about we start with Duran. How would you care to compare Duran's wins to Floyd's wins?

[Rantcatrat]

I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.

Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.

I don't want to have that argument either because I'm not guy who dislikes Floyd. I didn't intend the threat to devolve into that type of discussion. I wanted a discussion of legacy.

How about we start with Duran. How would you care to compare Duran's wins to Floyd's wins?

Hey @Beanflicker - did you get a chance to read the above post with regard to Duran?

[Violent Demise]

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?

[Beanflicker]

You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?

Old enough to turn on a DVD player or type in "youtube.com" apparently.

[Beanflicker]

Pipino Cuevas SUCKED. Jose Luis Castillo was a killer back in his prime, back when Floyd beat him.

[imp]

Floyd never quits.

Duran did.

Compare that.

You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!

[Violent Demise]

Floyd never quits.

Duran did.

Compare that.

You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!

You must of missed his last fight. He could of got up. But chose to stay down. He quit