Congratulations Egypt!

[brocktonblockbust]

The middle east is erupting on a few different fronts, Iraqs at it again.

I'm a little more worried about Turkey because that's heading towards Europe and we don't need further troubles breaking out there.

thank God I got out of there last year.

[Andre]

We need to not get drawn into any of these conflicts at all.
Or one day we the west will have too many fronts to deal with and enemies in too many different directions to be able to control any of them. North Korea would be the last straw for us if we were all drawn into another war first. Then we have the small insane groups who would put the accelerator down too,they have the longest memories and are born into blaming us for everything.

[El Kabong]

You are asking for facts now after telling me to fuck off?

Your lies and distortions are obvious. Where are your facts about Chomsky, the bloated idiot, you fat disgusting slob of a sweaty freak?

So you can't provide any then?

Excuse me, you blob.

I gave a very good argument in this thread and you told me to fuck off. You didn't address a single thing and now that you have insulted and ran, you think I owe you anything? Then you insulted Chomsky and again couldn't back it up.

You are pathetic, Lyle. You got into this thread so how about learn the issues and then talk about them.

What was it I called you....a wanker....yes, you are a wanker. America is individually alright, but you give it the wrong image.

Provide examples miles! How hard is it? I provided an example of your hero of academia being caught arguing AGAINST free speech in publicly funded universities thereby making him a simple minded dope who is opposed to the First amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

What do you have on me that shows me as THAT un-American?


Go read your Marx you dope...don't leave the classroom you make more sense when you require obedience from your lemmings

How hard is it, you say?

Respond to my original post in an honest way first then. Otherwise, (as you like to say) fuck off, Lyle.

So you give up then? Typical

[Howlin Mad Missy]

I will ban Miles and Lyle from this thread if you continue to use it as a vehicle to hurl insults, post about chomsky, obama bash....in the real world people are getting killed by the muslim brotherhood and the Beeb and other news channels are not reporting it.

[El Kabong]

I will ban Miles and Lyle from this thread if you continue to use it as a vehicle to hurl insults, post about chomsky, obama bash....in the real world people are getting killed by the muslim brotherhood and the Beeb and other news channels are not reporting it.

They wish it to all fade away under the guise of "the right thing was done in getting rid of Mubarak".....what is happening now is typical "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Egypt will sort itself out soon enough. It takes time to develop a solid foundation on which a good government can grow. I hope they sort it out, what's more I hope they are able to sort it out without any intervention.

[Kirkland Laing]

So what you're saying is, the dictatorship that ruled Egypt for decades was a good thing and America should have continued to prop it up even though Egyptians were on the street demanding democratic elections and American foreign policy is supposed to be all about spreading democracy. America should have prevented those elections by some magical means, made all those Egyptians just go home and continue to live under dictatorship.

And even though we've been propping up the previous dictatorship for decades you now think America should not get involved, even though you're blaming Obama for not getting involved to keep the dictatorship in power a couple of years ago. Got it.

It's what you call a "No win situation" Kirkland. Sure we helped solidify Mubarak's position, but then President Barack Hussein Obama recognized Morsi as President of Egypt and legitimized him.

And how did the Egyptians like that?








Oh they LOVE Obama, I mean he's lowering the levels of the seas and we're loved throughout the world just as Messiah Obama had predicted

Here's a little advice for Barry "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain

So Obama recognised the recognised winner of a democratic election after supporting theholding of democratic elections in Egypt? No shit! What else was he supposed to do?

[El Kabong]

So Obama recognised the recognised winner of a democratic election after supporting theholding of democratic elections in Egypt? No shit! What else was he supposed to do?

How's about he keep his fool mouth shut and not get involved...has the United States recognized Hamas when they are "democratically elected"?....So you see the hypocrisy then...or well you wouldn't because you wouldn't dare choose to agree with me.

[X]

The people didn't get rid of Morsi, the army did.

This is a bit of a dilemma: no matter whether we like it or not, the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood were voted into power through Egypt's first ever free elections.

'Some' people (and we have no idea how many, nor what proportion of the population they were, came out on the streets to protest. The Army then intervened and - technically - carried out a military coup.

I'm not sure we would think that was OK usually.

So ...... democracy is a good thing - as long as you vote the right people in. If you make a mistake and vote in a useless government (and I can think of a few times this has happened in Western democracies), then it's OK to act undemocratically in the name of democracy?

Confused

um, poll tax?

maybe people should actually listen to the people who live there and not the snippets on the news over here.

The egyptian people acted in a way that probably scares western govts. The way you lot are acting is as if they should have sat back and continue to wreck the country for a few more years?

The thing I like about you is that you always have an opinion, and you stand by it.

Other people do too, though

The poll tax was not in any way comparable to what happened in Egypt. I don't recall the Army removing the government?

Incidentally, I lived in the middle east for 12 years, and worked as a Divemaster in Egypt for another 5. I speak fluent Arabic and have many close Egyptian friends all over Egypt who I have been communicating with to check they are OK. I think I know enough about Egypt first hand to have a view as valid as yours

[Gandalf]

You are asking for facts now after telling me to fuck off?

Your lies and distortions are obvious. Where are your facts about Chomsky, the bloated idiot, you fat disgusting slob of a sweaty freak?

So you can't provide any then?

Excuse me, you blob.

I gave a very good argument in this thread and you told me to fuck off. You didn't address a single thing and now that you have insulted and ran, you think I owe you anything? Then you insulted Chomsky and again couldn't back it up.

You are pathetic, Lyle. You got into this thread so how about learn the issues and then talk about them.

What was it I called you....a wanker....yes, you are a wanker. America is individually alright, but you give it the wrong image.

Provide examples miles! How hard is it? I provided an example of your hero of academia being caught arguing AGAINST free speech in publicly funded universities thereby making him a simple minded dope who is opposed to the First amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

What do you have on me that shows me as THAT un-American?


Go read your Marx you dope...don't leave the classroom you make more sense when you require obedience from your lemmings

How hard is it, you say?

Respond to my original post in an honest way first then. Otherwise, (as you like to say) fuck off, Lyle.

So you give up then? Typical

You gave up by going 'Wa!! You hate America, Fuck off'. You couldn't address anything and your arguments show a typically ignorant indocrinated US attitude towards the middle east. You are ignorant and insulting not only to me, but the issue itself.

[El Kabong]

anyone else think we should change 'obama' to something funny to make lyle's rants more tolerable.

He's is a poor leader....are you attempting to say otherwise Missy?

All of your leaders are poor, so at least be consistent with that argument. Also, the only reason you want 'allies' in the middle east is to sustain oil supply. You couldn't care less about Egyptian democracy in the past so I find it interesting that you now have an interest when Obama can be attached to it. America has always been in support of non-democratic regimes in the middle east in order to maintain an oil supply that is cheap. Israel and Egypt are about the region cogs working nicely and little more. Obama is like all recent Presidents in that he has next to no interest in Egyptian democracy. On that basis you cannot make Obama a special case. If you are to argue that Obama should be in support of democracy then you should apply it to all the nations that America deals with and democracy is the least of their concerns in most cases.

Fine miles....I don't want their oil I want AMERICAN oil. Obama isn't the only President with a poor record in the Middle East BUT he was sold to the American people as a Messiah... I never bought into that. I'm quite pleased to own the Egyptian military if it means continued peace with Israel. We did support Mubarak but due to that we Obama included should allow the Egyptians to do their own thing we didn't need to say dick about Morsi all that could have come from that was bad.....and what do you know it did. Democracy is mob rule I want Republics! That way the minorities keep their rights.

Happy miles?? I do fucking hope so...the ice melted in my Papa Doble typing that you bastard

[Howlin Mad Missy]

The people didn't get rid of Morsi, the army did.

This is a bit of a dilemma: no matter whether we like it or not, the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood were voted into power through Egypt's first ever free elections.

'Some' people (and we have no idea how many, nor what proportion of the population they were, came out on the streets to protest. The Army then intervened and - technically - carried out a military coup.

I'm not sure we would think that was OK usually.

So ...... democracy is a good thing - as long as you vote the right people in. If you make a mistake and vote in a useless government (and I can think of a few times this has happened in Western democracies), then it's OK to act undemocratically in the name of democracy?

Confused

um, poll tax?

maybe people should actually listen to the people who live there and not the snippets on the news over here.

The egyptian people acted in a way that probably scares western govts. The way you lot are acting is as if they should have sat back and continue to wreck the country for a few more years?

The thing I like about you is that you always have an opinion, and you stand by it.

Other people do too, though

The poll tax was not in any way comparable to what happened in Egypt. I don't recall the Army removing the government?

Incidentally, I lived in the middle east for 12 years, and worked as a Divemaster in Egypt for another 5. I speak fluent Arabic and have many close Egyptian friends all over Egypt who I have been communicating with to check they are OK. I think I know enough about Egypt first hand to have a view as valid as yours

then you'll know the western media has been pretty much pro MB /mowsi despite the killings they've been carrying out?

The army supported the will of the people, what's more democratic than that? They acted with conscience, shame ours don't.



and you've NOT answered the question, do you think the people of egypt should have sat round for another 3 years or so and watched their country go further down the shitter?

The day after he got booted out food prices dropped!

Just because the people of egypt don't see democracy on your terms doesn't make it undemocratic. They see it as democratic, not a coup.

If you were still there as a dive master you'd be out of a job since most of the tourists have fucked off.

[Andre]

Is that act of murder shown there, done in the name of Islam?

[Andre]

I was wondering I haven't been following it at all; or is this shit strictly political?

[X]

The people didn't get rid of Morsi, the army did.

This is a bit of a dilemma: no matter whether we like it or not, the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood were voted into power through Egypt's first ever free elections.

'Some' people (and we have no idea how many, nor what proportion of the population they were, came out on the streets to protest. The Army then intervened and - technically - carried out a military coup.

I'm not sure we would think that was OK usually.

So ...... democracy is a good thing - as long as you vote the right people in. If you make a mistake and vote in a useless government (and I can think of a few times this has happened in Western democracies), then it's OK to act undemocratically in the name of democracy?

Confused

um, poll tax?

maybe people should actually listen to the people who live there and not the snippets on the news over here.

The egyptian people acted in a way that probably scares western govts. The way you lot are acting is as if they should have sat back and continue to wreck the country for a few more years?

The thing I like about you is that you always have an opinion, and you stand by it.

Other people do too, though

The poll tax was not in any way comparable to what happened in Egypt. I don't recall the Army removing the government?

Incidentally, I lived in the middle east for 12 years, and worked as a Divemaster in Egypt for another 5. I speak fluent Arabic and have many close Egyptian friends all over Egypt who I have been communicating with to check they are OK. I think I know enough about Egypt first hand to have a view as valid as yours

then you'll know the western media has been pretty much pro MB /mowsi despite the killings they've been carrying out?

The army supported the will of the people, what's more democratic than that? They acted with conscience, shame ours don't.



and you've NOT answered the question, do you think the people of egypt should have sat round for another 3 years or so and watched their country go further down the shitter?

The day after he got booted out food prices dropped!

Just because the people of egypt don't see democracy on your terms doesn't make it undemocratic. They see it as democratic, not a coup.

If you were still there as a dive master you'd be out of a job since most of the tourists have fucked off.

Yep, the Western media have been pro Morsi (and Mubarak was a creation of the West, just like most of the more recent Arab dictators)... and, yep, I would be out of a job because the tourists haven't been going there for about 4 years now because of the unrest. Last year was a good one for the tourist trade, but this will have frightened people away again for the next few years. Loads of people there depend on tourism

However ..... the army carried out the will of the army (not of 'the people'). It's very fragmented over there so I'm not sure anybody (including Egyptians) really knows what 'the will of the people is' even if some sort of consensus existed.

Food prices dropped because the interim government increased the subsidy on food, which they can't afford to do for long. It will rise again soon.

I think we are disagreeing on what 'democracy' means. My point was that kicking Morsi out (putting aside what he was like etc) was undemocratic. Strictly speaking, the Egyptians SHOULD have sat around while their country was going down the shitter .... that's what democracy is. You vote someone in for an agreed term of power. Democracy also says you can oust them through a vote of no confidence. They didn't do that, they tried to start another revolution until the army shat itself and got involved.

Im not saying that was the right thing to do, but my point is that it is not democratic for the army to choose to boot out elected politicians.

At least lets not pretend that what is happening, and going to happen is in any way democratic, because it isn't. The Egyptians might eventually arrive at the right answer for their country, but it wont be democracy in action.

Haver you ever been to North Africa, or Egypt ...... I am not goading you or anything, but most of our views are usually formed from the snippets of poorly reported vested-interest news there is. I was in Dahab when it was bombed and I was disgusted by the hordes of well fed journalists who descended on the place, looking for a story with no regard for people's loss or misery. They spent most of the time in 5 star hotels dining on expenses and when I actually watched the BBC News 24 service while I was there, it bore no resemblance to what I could see out of the window

[Kirkland Laing]

So Obama recognised the recognised winner of a democratic election after supporting theholding of democratic elections in Egypt? No shit! What else was he supposed to do?

How's about he keep his fool mouth shut and not get involved...has the United States recognized Hamas when they are "democratically elected"?....So you see the hypocrisy then...or well you wouldn't because you wouldn't dare choose to agree with me.

What difference does it make what Obama says? How does anything the American President say "legitimise" anything? The fuckers won a democratic election. They got legitimised by the people of Egypt.