Message to all Americans: your time is up

[killersheep]

Miles, I was just trying to be polite and put the offer out there, no harm, no foul.

[Gandalf]

Miles, I was just trying to be polite and put the offer out there, no harm, no foul.

No, I am not trying to be rude either. It's just that the numbers are so outrageous and I think of you as a smart person, so find it odd that you don't see the decline when it seems quite clear, numerically speaking. I am only really paraphrasing Warren whose lecture is really very succinct and interesting. I always get labelled as the man who hates America (largely by Lyle) but I don't hate it. People are just people, it is the politics that I will admit a genuine dislike of. However, you are right in that I am not in the heart of it and go largely on observations from media and people like Warren. America is a huge country and I imagine many probably do much the same. It is different that way to somewhere like Britain which is so compact and easy to observe.

I would love to come to America one day as it looks like a beautiful place and New York and San Francisco are home to my favourite films, but I often reverse my intentions to visit as I get frightened and upset by the politics. Needless to say though, if I ever did visit, I would be up for a Saddo's meetup. I think only you with Mick, and me with MarkTKO, are the only people of recent times to have met up.

[Beanz]

You should be sure to meet up with Mick if you do visit killersheep Miles. That would be so ubbergay that a giant glittery worm hole would open up in the Universe as an army of pink stormtroopers, beautifully choreographed by Busby Berkley marched through.

[VictorCharlie]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

I'll bookmark your video but I just don't have time right now to watch and hour long lecture. While I wouldn't call Warren ignorant about the US it should be noted that she is a politician belonging to a party that panders to low income people. It is her business to tell working class people it is someone elses fault that life is hard. W/o watching the video I can't address her issues but I'd want to see her sources and lets be honest she has a history of being dishonest.

Now to answer your question, yes, when it comes to the United States I think you are pretty ignorant in the same way I'm pretty ignorant about the dynamics of Korea or the UK. Of course, I don't spend an exorbitant amount of time posting about those countries and telling their citizens what it is really like in their nation and then dismiss their responses by either saying their statements are invalid b/c of their employment or b/c they are obviously just indoctrinated by a inferior education system. In multiple postings about the US you have failed to provide supporting sources for many of your assertions and I have in turn provided sources showing that some of your statements of fact are actually not accurate. It is not really something to get bent out of shape about. You have never been here much less lived here. From what I can gather you have never really interacted with many Americans other than some randoms at your local pub. Why would you be expected to really understand the US, its people or how things work here? You have probably gotten more American interaction here than anywhere else but of course we are all a bunch of fat neocon zombies.

I don't disagree with you that higher education prices are going up exponentially but this is a problem caused by public policy that is promoted as a means to help middle and lower income families. These two videos overlap some on their ideas but Dr. Lin of American University does a good job of explaining how bad policy has more to do with high tuition than anything else.



The healthcare issue here is more complicated than the tuition issue but it has similar themes. Here is a pretty good video and article about the actual problem and necessary solutions
What's Really Wrong with the Healthcare Industry - Vijay Boyapati - Mises Daily



Now you said

It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge

So lets tackle the stagnation of wages here



and before you tell me that costs are far outpacing even rising wages...



just in case your next point was to say "yeah but the poor are getting even poorer..."



now you are going to tell me "Ok VC but the US has no economic mobility"...



Your last point about the large number of Americans using some type of social safety net....well yeah we are coming out of one of the worst economic downturns in our nation's history. I'm not sure why you'd expect something different.

You said

Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

For starters after college I was a teacher like you making around 65% of what I do now. Then I ran a bar making more than I do now. I chose to be in the military b/c I wanted to do something more meaningful with my life and I wanted a challenge and I took a pay cut to do it. I don't look at my deployments as a sacrifice but rather just part of the job. The sacrifices my wife and I made were more in the lifestyle we lived. For starters once we had children she didn't work which was a significant pay cut. It was important for us that she be at home with at least our first two until they went to school. We went w/o a lot of luxuries we had become accustomed to and in some areas still do. These are the sacrifices I meant. Middle class America needs to do less whining and simply plan better, save more and work harder. The ability to live a good life and improve oneself is still there but it takes these things called discipline, personal accountability and drive.

Tangentially, you have made a lot of posts about two working parents causing the deterioration of the homelife. My wife has worked the last 4 years which is most of my youngest child's life and at least half or more of my other two. My children are well behaved, do well at school and respectful. Two working parents can make a family work just fine. It just requires a little more time and effort on their part.

[Gandalf]

Disturbing Statistics on the Decline of America's Middle Class - DailyFinance

An article showing how much wealth is funneled up and just how many 'stable' factory jobs have been shipped overseas. If that isn't a decimation of an entire sector of the population, then I struggle to imagine anything convincing anybody.

The bottom 40% control less than 1% of the nations wealth.
The middle 20% control 6%.
And the elite 1% control over 40%.

It must be because most of the country are lazy bums who get everything handed to them. It couldn't be that wealth has been sucked up by the super rich at the expensive of everyone else. That would be the commonsense way to approach it.

[VictorCharlie]

As I've stated before we don't live in insular nations anymore. We have a global economy and labor market. If you are looking back to the 1950s or 60s wistfully then you are just wasting your time. The world has changed. Middle class people need to realize they have to compete in this global economy and adjust with it. I addressed most of these points already. Blaming successful people is just class warfare.

[Gandalf]

Why should people have adjusted? When you are in your 50's and have worked in that factory all your life, surely that means something. It also means a lot when neccessities were getting more expensive so you couldn't save enough and then they say YOU are too expensive, we are going to China! It also means a lot more when the jobs have largely been shipped to a country that pretty much provides slave labour and is supposedly a communist menace. It's a heist. I suppose 'communism' and sharia law go out of the window when the elite want to pillage their own economies in order to please the 1% of the populace with a serious claim on stocks and shares. Globalisation is the biggest con as all it has meant is that corporations have moved on the hunt for cheap labour and the only people who truly advance are the shareholders in those corporations which is the American elite, and now the Chinese elite.

More stats... NEW PAPYRUS: The Rapid Decline of the American Middle Class

I don't think anybody truly imagines life as good as generations past, but what has taken place is a systematic assault upon the vast majority of the population. The business elites and Wall Street have commited a vast money grab in the name of globalisation which basically means swarming like locusts to pick up cheap labour in places with few labour laws and even less of a pretence at being democratic.

[VictorCharlie]

People should adjust b/c the world is not static and they have to or hazard getting passed by. Much of that article is either showing how many middle class people do a piss poor job of planning and saving or more class warfare. Middle class families and the poor aren't' doing bad b/c other people are doing well. There is no finite amount of wealth where if the rich have X percent it means the rest are screwed. I know you dismiss my life as just an anecdotal outlier but our middle class would do well to be educated on how people like me build a good life instead of demonizing people that have been very successful. All that being said, do you have some solution to the issues you have brought up?

[Gandalf]

The world is not static, so in that sense changes can be implemented with enough drive and pressure put on the government. Accepting what is happening is only going to see further deterioration, so people need to take to the streets and revolt. They need to demand an end to military spending, excessive lobbying etc and to demand a more progressive tax system and for American politicians to represent American people over corporations and the elite. Health care needs to be cheaper, military needs to be cheaper, the super rich should give back considering they have got rich largely on the back of selling jobs to the cheapest bidder. That effective factory should not be closed down because of WalMart, but instead Walmart should be held to account for being un-American. I am in favour of the government being involved to help American people keep their jobs and if a job is lost to give them new skills.

What has taken place is so blatant and obvious and the agenda so clear. They have attempted to shell America. When there has been a heist so big and where Obama will do as he pleases no matter what, I do believe the approaxch to change is to be found in models overseas where people are showing what you do. Maybe it will take further decline before anything happens. In the face of repression and decline protest is always the way.

This topic is depressing and I don't really want to talk about it anymore. It's a waste of time. The statistics are there, you have the data and talk about Warren being a native Indian is really just an absurd distraction. Maybe generations back, but now? I don't think it really matters. We all go back somewhere. Anyway, watch the lecture and take it or leave it. It's depressing because none of this needed to happen. Globalisation was the great academic con, and sure you can buy food cheaper (reversing heavily in recent years), but when you gut a manufacturing sector. Well, I don't think is any way to treat people. 'We will become a service based economy!'. What a fucking stupid idea and how well it has turned out, the economists are liars and quite predictably the rich have got richer and the poor have expanded.

[CFH]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

Tell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.

I'd watch that reality show.

Have you ever been to the States, Miles? It's a pretty interesting and diverse place filled with all sorts of people.

[brocktonblockbust]

i.e. adam lanza, the joker, the diverse guys who blew up boston, ben nernanke, obama, yeah, diverse.......and psychotic loaded with seratonin reuptake inhibitors, prozac, etc.

[Gandalf]

Also quit with the demonising element. I respect people that do well for themselves and that means both you and KS. The only element I question is the military aspect as I find it impossible to reconcile politicians saying shove and people going into wars that they know are nonsense. That aspect I find very sketchy and could never imagine myself being put in that position, but asides from that bar work, teaching, some aspects of the military, those are standup things. I don't dismiss your life nor that of KS. I am sure you are doing well, and it is better that more are doing better too. I want people to live better and more efficient lives.

I've pushed my arguments more on one side, but personally I believe that self moderation and being more careful are important too. I agree with you and KS there. I don't think you should get married have 2 kids and then realise you have no money or permanent home and then get into a mountain of debt to pay for it. That is called stupidity and that is where I get annoyed with humans as they do seem to make a lot of poor decisions. At the same time though, it isn't fair that the basics are 76% more expensive today and that is largely money going straight to the 1%. I don't see how that can be justified. Personal decision making is being taken away from people then. You can choose to delay buying a new suit, but you have to pay the rent.

I pay low rents, low taxes, have a cheap car, cheap healthcare, no children, and both of us work and as a result life is very easy. Those things are a tiny proportion of our income, but I predict it will get worse here. Having the ability to control your own disposable income is very important considering the world we live in people should be more prudent. Like you and KS, I am careful and aware. You don't need to join the rat race. I talk about being careful, but society here is much like America. People are told that they must have those children, and the big car, and the mortgage, and here private education is very costly. As a result, you have a society, with less taxes, but it does get gobbled up in private education and the silly keeping up with the Jones'. Again, it means a country living on credit to alarming levels and most don't need to do that.

Anyway, argument done because it is depressing and I am hungry.