Message to all Americans: your time is up

[Gandalf]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

[killersheep]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

Tell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.

[Gandalf]

Just look at the data Warren provides at the 22 to 30 minute mark. American families have 2 parents working and spend massive proportions of their income on transportation, healthcare, mortgages, taxes and childcare. I am not disputing that there is a middle class and that some are doing very well for themselves. Of course that would be the case, but in general standards of living for middle class people have declined economically over recent decades. For those in the lower end sectors such as long term manufacturing, they have been eradicated and many others will clearly be struggling.

The only way families have survived is by making sure that more women work and in turn that means children are being raised very differently to generations past too. With two parents working families have LESS money that when there were largely single earning families. Now what will you say to disagree with the data that Warren provides? Elizabeth Warren is well respected and your ancedotal 'evidence' is clearly just that. America is a very big country and nobody denies that there are rich people or people with a spare room. I have one too, but that isn't really relevant to a bigger picture.

[killersheep]

Just look at the data Warren provides at the 22 to 30 minute mark. American families have 2 parents working and spend massive proportions of their income on transportation, healthcare, mortgages, taxes and childcare. I am not disputing that there is a middle class and that some are doing very well for themselves. Of course that would be the case, but in general standards of living for middle class people have declined economically over recent decades. For those in the lower end sectors such as long term manufacturing, they have been eradicated and many others will clearly be struggling.

The only way families have survived is by making sure that more women work and in turn that means children are being raised very differently to generations past too. With two parents working families have LESS money that when there were largely single earning families. Now what will you say to disagree with the data that Warren provides? Elizabeth Warren is well respected and your ancedotal 'evidence' is clearly just that. America is a very big country and nobody denies that there are rich people or people with a spare room. I have one too, but that isn't really relevant to a bigger picture.

I equate this phenomena with various things, of course the fact that we have more things as a rule of thumb has a lot to do with it. Just look around your apartment, put yourself in the place of your grandparents at your age and ask which of these things would they have? Even the lower classes have more stuff than prior generations. Here in Phoenix if someone were to live a very simple lifestyle (much akin to generations past) they could live on a minimum wage job, there would be a lot of sacrifices and extra work, but it's not unlike how people in the past lived. The more complicated our lives are the more expensive and the more we think we "need".

The bigger picture here is that I am offering to show you first hand how Americans live in the really real world (and of course I offer a room to my guests, I'm not bragging it's the purpose of the room) I can take you to the ghettos out here, I can take you to the elite neighborhoods. I am offering you the opportunity to examine what your studies are showing first hand. I am offering to show you how amazing and resilient people can be.

[Gandalf]

Just look at the data Warren provides at the 22 to 30 minute mark. American families have 2 parents working and spend massive proportions of their income on transportation, healthcare, mortgages, taxes and childcare. I am not disputing that there is a middle class and that some are doing very well for themselves. Of course that would be the case, but in general standards of living for middle class people have declined economically over recent decades. For those in the lower end sectors such as long term manufacturing, they have been eradicated and many others will clearly be struggling.

The only way families have survived is by making sure that more women work and in turn that means children are being raised very differently to generations past too. With two parents working families have LESS money that when there were largely single earning families. Now what will you say to disagree with the data that Warren provides? Elizabeth Warren is well respected and your ancedotal 'evidence' is clearly just that. America is a very big country and nobody denies that there are rich people or people with a spare room. I have one too, but that isn't really relevant to a bigger picture.

I equate this phenomena with various things, of course the fact that we have more things as a rule of thumb has a lot to do with it. Just look around your apartment, put yourself in the place of your grandparents at your age and ask which of these things would they have? Even the lower classes have more stuff than prior generations. Here in Phoenix if someone were to live a very simple lifestyle (much akin to generations past) they could live on a minimum wage job, there would be a lot of sacrifices and extra work, but it's not unlike how people in the past lived. The more complicated our lives are the more expensive and the more we think we "need".

The bigger picture here is that I am offering to show you first hand how Americans live in the really real world (and of course I offer a room to my guests, I'm not bragging it's the purpose of the room) I can take you to the ghettos out here, I can take you to the elite neighborhoods. I am offering you the opportunity to examine what your studies are showing first hand. I am offering to show you how amazing and resilient people can be.

In the past a single income would pay for the 5 five neccessities of home, taxes, child care, health and transport and still leave you with more than half of your income as disposable. The data Warren provides shows that those same things which most would argue they have a right to cost a lot more today and 2 breadwinners are spending 3 quarters of their income on them. That is a numerical decline.

Food, clothing and so on are cheaper today, but those things are always flexible. Having a home, paying taxes, and having the means to get to work are not flexible and that flexibility has been largely taken away.

Sure, many fritter away their money on trivial things, but on the whole money is gobbled up by rents, mortgages, health, tax and children. The same has largely happened in the UK too and I think it is incredibly unfair. People are enslaved by those burdens and of course education is a more recent addition to the burden.

People don't really have a choice and it is partly propaganda to be blaming the scroungers as Lyle does or say that America has plenty of opportunities when inequality in America is at peak levels and the numbers prove that the middle class is declining. There are scroungers and there are successful people, but it is also true that those in the middle are largely falling further behind. The statistics show it and it is real.

In the post WW2 period American quality of life was improving economically up until the 1960's and it has been in decline since. You cannot tell me that the Internet and a few gadgets makes up for the loss of freedoms, less disposable income, and the massive increase in cost for the neccessities. The peak of oil production is only going to destroy the tens of millions living in the suburbs in the future too which will be an additional crushing burden.

People should be able to earn enough to give them half their income to do what they want with as a minimum (not fact, just opinion). If you fritter it away then you deserve what you get, but you cannot just increase the neccessities 76% and apply the same rules. It is unfair and I just wonder where it will end. The increases cannot carry on without increasing inequality and reducing the middle classes. The increases alone make freedom an impossibility for many people, if you are not free to earn enough to save and be independant, then a few gadgets are not going to make up for that.

[brocktonblockbust]

sorry killersheep but there is no revival anywhere, no time, no where, in the usa. Smoke and mirrors, yes, you have plenty of that there, smoke and mirrors and shell games as I am trying to educate Kirkland Laing about----you know Kirkland, the guy who believes everything the govt accounting office and the admin tell him about employment and inflation stats, etc.

[killersheep]

Miles, I was just trying to be polite and put the offer out there, no harm, no foul.

[CFH]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

Tell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.

I'd watch that reality show.

Have you ever been to the States, Miles? It's a pretty interesting and diverse place filled with all sorts of people.

[brocktonblockbust]

i.e. adam lanza, the joker, the diverse guys who blew up boston, ben nernanke, obama, yeah, diverse.......and psychotic loaded with seratonin reuptake inhibitors, prozac, etc.

[VictorCharlie]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

I'll bookmark your video but I just don't have time right now to watch and hour long lecture. While I wouldn't call Warren ignorant about the US it should be noted that she is a politician belonging to a party that panders to low income people. It is her business to tell working class people it is someone elses fault that life is hard. W/o watching the video I can't address her issues but I'd want to see her sources and lets be honest she has a history of being dishonest.

Now to answer your question, yes, when it comes to the United States I think you are pretty ignorant in the same way I'm pretty ignorant about the dynamics of Korea or the UK. Of course, I don't spend an exorbitant amount of time posting about those countries and telling their citizens what it is really like in their nation and then dismiss their responses by either saying their statements are invalid b/c of their employment or b/c they are obviously just indoctrinated by a inferior education system. In multiple postings about the US you have failed to provide supporting sources for many of your assertions and I have in turn provided sources showing that some of your statements of fact are actually not accurate. It is not really something to get bent out of shape about. You have never been here much less lived here. From what I can gather you have never really interacted with many Americans other than some randoms at your local pub. Why would you be expected to really understand the US, its people or how things work here? You have probably gotten more American interaction here than anywhere else but of course we are all a bunch of fat neocon zombies.

I don't disagree with you that higher education prices are going up exponentially but this is a problem caused by public policy that is promoted as a means to help middle and lower income families. These two videos overlap some on their ideas but Dr. Lin of American University does a good job of explaining how bad policy has more to do with high tuition than anything else.



The healthcare issue here is more complicated than the tuition issue but it has similar themes. Here is a pretty good video and article about the actual problem and necessary solutions
What's Really Wrong with the Healthcare Industry - Vijay Boyapati - Mises Daily



Now you said

It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge

So lets tackle the stagnation of wages here



and before you tell me that costs are far outpacing even rising wages...



just in case your next point was to say "yeah but the poor are getting even poorer..."



now you are going to tell me "Ok VC but the US has no economic mobility"...



Your last point about the large number of Americans using some type of social safety net....well yeah we are coming out of one of the worst economic downturns in our nation's history. I'm not sure why you'd expect something different.

You said

Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

For starters after college I was a teacher like you making around 65% of what I do now. Then I ran a bar making more than I do now. I chose to be in the military b/c I wanted to do something more meaningful with my life and I wanted a challenge and I took a pay cut to do it. I don't look at my deployments as a sacrifice but rather just part of the job. The sacrifices my wife and I made were more in the lifestyle we lived. For starters once we had children she didn't work which was a significant pay cut. It was important for us that she be at home with at least our first two until they went to school. We went w/o a lot of luxuries we had become accustomed to and in some areas still do. These are the sacrifices I meant. Middle class America needs to do less whining and simply plan better, save more and work harder. The ability to live a good life and improve oneself is still there but it takes these things called discipline, personal accountability and drive.

Tangentially, you have made a lot of posts about two working parents causing the deterioration of the homelife. My wife has worked the last 4 years which is most of my youngest child's life and at least half or more of my other two. My children are well behaved, do well at school and respectful. Two working parents can make a family work just fine. It just requires a little more time and effort on their part.

[Gandalf]

Disturbing Statistics on the Decline of America's Middle Class - DailyFinance

An article showing how much wealth is funneled up and just how many 'stable' factory jobs have been shipped overseas. If that isn't a decimation of an entire sector of the population, then I struggle to imagine anything convincing anybody.

The bottom 40% control less than 1% of the nations wealth.
The middle 20% control 6%.
And the elite 1% control over 40%.

It must be because most of the country are lazy bums who get everything handed to them. It couldn't be that wealth has been sucked up by the super rich at the expensive of everyone else. That would be the commonsense way to approach it.

[VictorCharlie]

As I've stated before we don't live in insular nations anymore. We have a global economy and labor market. If you are looking back to the 1950s or 60s wistfully then you are just wasting your time. The world has changed. Middle class people need to realize they have to compete in this global economy and adjust with it. I addressed most of these points already. Blaming successful people is just class warfare.

[Gandalf]

Why should people have adjusted? When you are in your 50's and have worked in that factory all your life, surely that means something. It also means a lot when neccessities were getting more expensive so you couldn't save enough and then they say YOU are too expensive, we are going to China! It also means a lot more when the jobs have largely been shipped to a country that pretty much provides slave labour and is supposedly a communist menace. It's a heist. I suppose 'communism' and sharia law go out of the window when the elite want to pillage their own economies in order to please the 1% of the populace with a serious claim on stocks and shares. Globalisation is the biggest con as all it has meant is that corporations have moved on the hunt for cheap labour and the only people who truly advance are the shareholders in those corporations which is the American elite, and now the Chinese elite.

More stats... NEW PAPYRUS: The Rapid Decline of the American Middle Class

I don't think anybody truly imagines life as good as generations past, but what has taken place is a systematic assault upon the vast majority of the population. The business elites and Wall Street have commited a vast money grab in the name of globalisation which basically means swarming like locusts to pick up cheap labour in places with few labour laws and even less of a pretence at being democratic.

[VictorCharlie]

People should adjust b/c the world is not static and they have to or hazard getting passed by. Much of that article is either showing how many middle class people do a piss poor job of planning and saving or more class warfare. Middle class families and the poor aren't' doing bad b/c other people are doing well. There is no finite amount of wealth where if the rich have X percent it means the rest are screwed. I know you dismiss my life as just an anecdotal outlier but our middle class would do well to be educated on how people like me build a good life instead of demonizing people that have been very successful. All that being said, do you have some solution to the issues you have brought up?

[Gandalf]

The world is not static, so in that sense changes can be implemented with enough drive and pressure put on the government. Accepting what is happening is only going to see further deterioration, so people need to take to the streets and revolt. They need to demand an end to military spending, excessive lobbying etc and to demand a more progressive tax system and for American politicians to represent American people over corporations and the elite. Health care needs to be cheaper, military needs to be cheaper, the super rich should give back considering they have got rich largely on the back of selling jobs to the cheapest bidder. That effective factory should not be closed down because of WalMart, but instead Walmart should be held to account for being un-American. I am in favour of the government being involved to help American people keep their jobs and if a job is lost to give them new skills.

What has taken place is so blatant and obvious and the agenda so clear. They have attempted to shell America. When there has been a heist so big and where Obama will do as he pleases no matter what, I do believe the approaxch to change is to be found in models overseas where people are showing what you do. Maybe it will take further decline before anything happens. In the face of repression and decline protest is always the way.

This topic is depressing and I don't really want to talk about it anymore. It's a waste of time. The statistics are there, you have the data and talk about Warren being a native Indian is really just an absurd distraction. Maybe generations back, but now? I don't think it really matters. We all go back somewhere. Anyway, watch the lecture and take it or leave it. It's depressing because none of this needed to happen. Globalisation was the great academic con, and sure you can buy food cheaper (reversing heavily in recent years), but when you gut a manufacturing sector. Well, I don't think is any way to treat people. 'We will become a service based economy!'. What a fucking stupid idea and how well it has turned out, the economists are liars and quite predictably the rich have got richer and the poor have expanded.