A points ranking system to legitimise boxing rankings and championships!!

[Britkid]

So the number two and three Middleweights can clash, but because it is contracted for 162lbs, it does not count.

Also the moment you become champ, you do not need to fight any contender.

It is boxing, points system for rankings are always up for abuse. Boxing is always going to be in part down to politics, I cannot ever see a realistic system being brought in to resolve that.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Wired

But still, I'm interested in the part about the Ring changing it's system?

Either way, I honestly don't care until someone promises me my Super-cruiser-weight division.

[ross]

Wired

But still, I'm interested in the part about the Ring changing it's system?

Either way, I honestly don't care until someone promises me my Super-cruiser-weight division.

Or a light hea... oh yeah...

[yaltamaltadavid]

So the number two and three Middleweights can clash, but because it is contracted for 162lbs, it does not count.

Also the moment you become champ, you do not need to fight any contender.

It is boxing, points system for rankings are always up for abuse. Boxing is always going to be in part down to politics, I cannot ever see a realistic system being brought in to resolve that.

If the number 2 and 3 middleweights fight in an over the weight fight it would be a super middleweight fight and they would earn super middleweight ranking points. I don't think it would be fair for that fight to be considered towards their middleweight ranking. My rules also covered the situation of one boxer not making the division's weight limit in a fight between two top-30 contenders: the boxer who didn't make make weight couldn't earn points, the boxer who did make weight could.

Are you saying a champion should be required to fight a contender? I think matchmaking is beyond the reach of a ranking system, especially an objective one.

Boxing's never had a points ranking system as a precedent to say it would be abused. Subjective rankings controlled by businesses to me are much more open to abuse. A ranking system can't change boxing on its own. Maybe a promoter would make fights just so his boxer would get ranking points, so maybe boxers under some promoters would have a better chance of being ranked higher. But promoters wouldn't be able to directly decide their boxers ranking at all.

[yaltamaltadavid]

I made a new forum!

To discuss the ranking system I've proposed, then of course to post updates. I decided instead of polling dozens of people to get the first top-30, I'm going to try just averaging out the top-30 rankings of Boxrec and the IBO (filling in the four alphabet titlist the IBO doesn't rank based on their TBRB rank).

I'll compile a top-30 with that method at welterweight, then do a test by adding the ranking points from fights from the last three years. Once the system's running we'll need more help maintaining the rankings, but to do that you'll only need to know how to use boxrec and a calculator. If you're willing to help maintain the site, I'll also share the forum admin password with you. Who's interested?

I'm not interested anymore in debating with people who are convinced subjective rankings are necessary. Bashing the very idea of objective rankings will not be welcome in the ranking system sections, but there's also a general boxing section, which is completely open. So stop by for a chat

www.worldboxingrankings.proboards.com

[yaltamaltadavid]

I'll have the welterweight rankings ready tomorrow.

[Britkid]

If the number 2 and 3 middleweights fight in an over the weight fight it would be a super middleweight fight and they would earn super middleweight ranking points. I don't think it would be fair for that fight to be considered towards their middleweight ranking. My rules also covered the situation of one boxer not making the division's weight limit in a fight between two top-30 contenders: the boxer who didn't make make weight couldn't earn points, the boxer who did make weight could.

Well the fact you made things so black and white turns thinks farcical. Geale and Murray fight at a contracted weight of 162, and neither can improve their 160lbs ranking. That is simply not going to work.

Are you saying a champion should be required to fight a contender? I think matchmaking is beyond the reach of a ranking system, especially an objective one.

Without the threat of sanctions, fighters will rightly fight the lowest risk fight for maximum gain. Why risk anything else?

Boxing's never had a points ranking system as a precedent to say it would be abused. Subjective rankings controlled by businesses to me are much more open to abuse. A ranking system can't change boxing on its own. Maybe a promoter would make fights just so his boxer would get ranking points, so maybe boxers under some promoters would have a better chance of being ranked higher. But promoters wouldn't be able to directly decide their boxers ranking at all.

There have been a number of 'points ranking systems' in the sport. No one really takes Boxrec serious, that IBU or whatever they were never got it to work, and no offence meant, just some honestly; your system is even more simplistic, inflexible and up for abuse.

But that written, good luck if you get somewhere with it. You will have achieved a lot more for the sport than me...

[yaltamaltadavid]

If the number 2 and 3 middleweights fight in an over the weight fight it would be a super middleweight fight and they would earn super middleweight ranking points. I don't think it would be fair for that fight to be considered towards their middleweight ranking. My rules also covered the situation of one boxer not making the division's weight limit in a fight between two top-30 contenders: the boxer who didn't make make weight couldn't earn points, the boxer who did make weight could.

Well the fact you made things so black and white turns thinks farcical. Geale and Murray fight at a contracted weight of 162, and neither can improve their 160lbs ranking. That is simply not going to work.

Are you saying a champion should be required to fight a contender? I think matchmaking is beyond the reach of a ranking system, especially an objective one.

Without the threat of sanctions, fighters will rightly fight the lowest risk fight for maximum gain. Why risk anything else?

Boxing's never had a points ranking system as a precedent to say it would be abused. Subjective rankings controlled by businesses to me are much more open to abuse. A ranking system can't change boxing on its own. Maybe a promoter would make fights just so his boxer would get ranking points, so maybe boxers under some promoters would have a better chance of being ranked higher. But promoters wouldn't be able to directly decide their boxers ranking at all.

There have been a number of 'points ranking systems' in the sport. No one really takes Boxrec serious, that IBU or whatever they were never got it to work, and no offence meant, just some honestly; your system is even more simplistic, inflexible and up for abuse.

But that written, good luck if you get somewhere with it. You will have achieved a lot more for the sport than me...

Weight needs to be black and white for fights to determine rankings. I'm sure you accept that a boxer can't miss weight and win a title, so fights over the weight should only affect ranking in the divsion above. It's especially not fair to other boxers who do consistently fight at the lower division.That principle is one standardised rankings need to stick to.

This is still boxing, if a guy chooses to not fight the number 1 contender in favour of a more marquee fighter he has every right to. But if clear, objective rankings are accepted fans and media can see that such a boxer can't pull the wool over the public's eyes and claim he fights the best. Alphabet belts allow boxers to get away with fighting mismatched opponents. And if any rankings body has the power to determine fights it will always be open to influence from promoters. If fair objective rankings became accepted and entrenched they'll in fact have much more success at pushing boxers to take on better competition.

There haven't been a 'number' of points ranking systems. I don't think you can name another besides boxrec and the IBO. The IBO is a sanctioning body and a business, and that it sells championships to garbage fighters so it can make money is proof enough that their rankings are worthless. Credible rankings must be independent. The boxrec rankings are not reflective of strict performace because they use so many irrelevant factors in their bizarre algorithym. Even if it did produce rankings reflective of simple accomplishments their system has little appeal because it's not clear and predictable, while what I've proposed is simple and transparent.

[yaltamaltadavid]

Initial top-30 rankings for heavyweight to light welterweight are now posted! This is really falling into place nicely, and I suspect by within a few months it will produce rankings more strictly based on accomplishments than any other rankings. The other divisions will be up in time for this to be ready for the fights in September. Check it out and let me know what you think...

www.worldboxingrankings.proboards.com

[Britkid]

Weight needs to be black and white for fights to determine rankings. I'm sure you accept that a boxer can't miss weight and win a title, so fights over the weight should only affect ranking in the divsion above. It's especially not fair to other boxers who do consistently fight at the lower division.That principle is one standardised rankings need to stick to.

You always need grey areas in boxing. There is no point penalizing two middleweight contenders for fighting each other at a contracted weight a little above 160lbs.

This is still boxing, if a guy chooses to not fight the number 1 contender in favour of a more marquee fighter he has every right to. But if clear, objective rankings are accepted fans and media can see that such a boxer can't pull the wool over the public's eyes and claim he fights the best. Alphabet belts allow boxers to get away with fighting mismatched opponents. And if any rankings body has the power to determine fights it will always be open to influence from promoters. If fair objective rankings became accepted and entrenched they'll in fact have much more success at pushing boxers to take on better competition.

So what you are saying is there is grey areas in boxing then?

There haven't been a 'number' of points ranking systems. I don't think you can name another besides boxrec and the IBO.

Not trying to be pedantic, but...

The IBO is a sanctioning body and a business, and that it sells championships to garbage fighters so it can make money is proof enough that their rankings are worthless. Credible rankings must be independent. The boxrec rankings are not reflective of strict performace because they use so many irrelevant factors in their bizarre algorithym. Even if it did produce rankings reflective of simple accomplishments their system has little appeal because it's not clear and predictable, while what I've proposed is simple and transparent.

But what you have created is a rating of those bastardized organizations. And because your system is so simple and transparent, it will in a sport like boxing be open to abuse. Personally I do not think boxing ratings using mathematical formulas (no matter how simple) work, but if you are serious you need to find a way to measure intangibles.

Boxing to me though, is as much an art as it science, and thus there are certain measurements that are just opinion and totally open, and so cannot be scientifically measured.

[yaltamaltadavid]

Weight needs to be black and white for fights to determine rankings. I'm sure you accept that a boxer can't miss weight and win a title, so fights over the weight should only affect ranking in the divsion above. It's especially not fair to other boxers who do consistently fight at the lower division.That principle is one standardised rankings need to stick to.

You always need grey areas in boxing. There is no point penalizing two middleweight contenders for fighting each other at a contracted weight a little above 160lbs.

This is still boxing, if a guy chooses to not fight the number 1 contender in favour of a more marquee fighter he has every right to. But if clear, objective rankings are accepted fans and media can see that such a boxer can't pull the wool over the public's eyes and claim he fights the best. Alphabet belts allow boxers to get away with fighting mismatched opponents. And if any rankings body has the power to determine fights it will always be open to influence from promoters. If fair objective rankings became accepted and entrenched they'll in fact have much more success at pushing boxers to take on better competition.

So what you are saying is there is grey areas in boxing then?

There haven't been a 'number' of points ranking systems. I don't think you can name another besides boxrec and the IBO.

Not trying to be pedantic, but...

The IBO is a sanctioning body and a business, and that it sells championships to garbage fighters so it can make money is proof enough that their rankings are worthless. Credible rankings must be independent. The boxrec rankings are not reflective of strict performace because they use so many irrelevant factors in their bizarre algorithym. Even if it did produce rankings reflective of simple accomplishments their system has little appeal because it's not clear and predictable, while what I've proposed is simple and transparent.

But what you have created is a rating of those bastardized organizations. And because your system is so simple and transparent, it will in a sport like boxing be open to abuse. Personally I do not think boxing ratings using mathematical formulas (no matter how simple) work, but if you are serious you need to find a way to measure intangibles.

Boxing to me though, is as much an art as it science, and thus there are certain measurements that are just opinion and totally open, and thus cannot be scientifically measured.

Indeed 2 is a number, haha. Anyway, your point is taken that no rankings are perfect.. the ATP rankings that I used as broad model aren't perfect either. I would still prefer rankings with consistency, where even suprising rankings could be explained. But the proof will be in the pudding... I'll bump this after the October update to let you know how the September fights affect the rankings.

[yaltamaltadavid]

As far as weight... we obviously just don't agree.

[Silkeyjoe]

The only way to have a legitimate ranking system is with one governing body. Like in tennis you have the ATP and everyone has a ranking. Or in football with FIFA. The problem with boxing is you have too many organisations, too many world titles. For example the middleweights. People can debate all they want about who's the best, is it Golovkin, is it Martinez, is it Quilin but what most will agree is it certainly aint Geale or Barker, yet they were ranked number 1.

[yaltamaltadavid]

I'm not a regular so apologise for 'agenda-posting'. But I've continued to devote myself to this ranking system with two other people, and managed to show how it holds up over a longer period with ww rankings since 1997.

Through maintaining this I've actually become less enthusiastic about any change unofficial rankings or lineal championship recognition can have. Despite the easy targets of the alphabets, like the post above me noted, the promotional structure of boxing prevents rankings from meaning anything. I'm a big supporter of AIBA's plan to run the whole of boxing as a proper governing body, with a set matchmaking structure. But till then boxing will be basically based on mismatches, and accepting 'fantasy champions' is just sticking your head in the sand. I'd rather make the pointlessness of championships and rankings apparent with our rankings than have people embrace them as the best.

Anyway, I think the system at least has its relative merits and the rankings show some assumptions of others aren't warranted: for example that Porter's a monster after beating Malignaggi, though Malignaggi never beat a ranked welterweight. Rankings should be truly divisional and level of opposition should be paramount.

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