Angel Adams, 37 yrs old with 15 kids and complaining about lack of gov't assistance

[Gandalf]

Stop being silly, my views on stories like this are never less than consistent.

I don't think it is the job of society to bail out a woman who cannot stop getting impregnated. Society should perhaps pay for an abortion or two and then sterilise her if she cannot make suitable provisions. Society, which is ordinary taxpayers, has no responsibility to people who have no self responsibility.

15 children subsidised by the state is the taxpaying money of honest people who are working hard at their jobs trying to pay for their own futures. Why should you have to bail out this woman? You shouldn't.

[El Kabong]

Stop being silly, my views on stories like this are never less than consistent.

I don't think it is the job of society to bail out a woman who cannot stop getting impregnated. Society should perhaps pay for an abortion or two and then sterilise her if she cannot make suitable provisions. Society, which is ordinary taxpayers, has no responsibility to people who have no self responsibility.

15 children subsidised by the state is the taxpaying money of honest people who are working hard at their jobs trying to pay for their own futures. Why should you have to bail out this woman? You shouldn't.

Well I would suggest after hearing of this story that people take a good long look at "The Welfare State" and what it has done especially to Black families. The Welfare State is ripping apart the nuclear family and has been since it started and there are PLENTY of reasons why that's bad for society.

[Gandalf]

Stop being silly, my views on stories like this are never less than consistent.

I don't think it is the job of society to bail out a woman who cannot stop getting impregnated. Society should perhaps pay for an abortion or two and then sterilise her if she cannot make suitable provisions. Society, which is ordinary taxpayers, has no responsibility to people who have no self responsibility.

15 children subsidised by the state is the taxpaying money of honest people who are working hard at their jobs trying to pay for their own futures. Why should you have to bail out this woman? You shouldn't.

Well I would suggest after hearing of this story that people take a good long look at "The Welfare State" and what it has done especially to Black families. The Welfare State is ripping apart the nuclear family and has been since it started and there are PLENTY of reasons why that's bad for society.

I'm somewhat in the middle on this.

I'm not against a welfare state and people are only human. You cannot guarantee a father figure will stick around, you cannot promise someone a job until retirement. You need safety nets for those people.

However, you cannot just abuse the system. 15 children is obviously a joke and shouldn't have been allowed. That is where I am less in the middle.

I'm not against a welfare state though. I grew up on the welfare state. However, in doing so, I determined that I would not put anyone else through it. It's not a fun way to grow up.

[Memphis]

Miles just to point out. No one complained about you saying having a child was something to plan and give serious thought to. It all went pear shaped when you said people with kids were idiots.

Box on.

[Gandalf]

Miles just to point out. No one complained about you saying having a child was something to plan and give serious thought to. It all went pear shaped when you said people with kids were idiots.

Box on.

I still think it is kind of true though. A time and a place for everything. Got a kid and not ready yet? Outof controll breeding is never good.

[Memphis]

No, having a kid doesnt automatically make you an idiot. Having fifteen and no means to support them yes, that makes you an idiot.

[El Kabong]

No, having a kid doesnt automatically make you an idiot. Having fifteen and no means to support them yes, that makes you an idiot.

...ah but here's the thought process, WELFARE is a means to support them. If not for welfare, then those children would be taken from that woman and adopted by people who COULD care for them.

It's just bad news when Uncle Sam steps in to play "Baby Daddy"

[Gandalf]

No, having a kid doesnt automatically make you an idiot. Having fifteen and no means to support them yes, that makes you an idiot.

Yes, it is a significantly different thing.

I disagree with Lyle's notion that charity can solve all of societies ills. Those that create inequality and poverty, have largely gained from perpetuating such a system. It is only right that tax is redistributed and that alone should be sufficient enough to reduce social inequality. That doesn't mean paying for every Mum and her dozen kids though, there needs to be sufficient checks and balances. If you are on welfare and get pregnant again for instance, then you should automatically be denied extra benefits.

I look at the society here and there is no such thing as the welfare Mum. It simply wouldn't be accepted and thus nobody allows it to happen. By being more hardline, you can stamp out blatant abuse. However, I think what we have here is perhaps too extreme. It really comes down to a sense of balance and proportion.

If the ordinary person wants a child then they should have one, but make sure they can provide for them first. If you've paid your taxes year in year out and things go wrong, then you deserve support too. You shouldn't need charities to bail you out as Lyle seems to think, your own contributions should suffice and people in the UK in particular tend to pay more than their share in taxes.

[Violent Demise]

Miles just to point out. No one complained about you saying having a child was something to plan and give serious thought to. It all went pear shaped when you said people with kids were idiots.

Box on.

I still think it is kind of true though. A time and a place for everything. Got a kid and not ready yet? Outof controll breeding is never good.

Sounds like something someone who not doesn't have any but can't have any kids would say

[Gandalf]

That is a silly argument, VD and nothing to do with my stance on the issue. Nobody should be having children if there is nothing to back them up. My views come from a general appraisal of society, experience, and knowing how those who grew up around me have done. It is irresponsible to raise children and not be able to support them.

For your information, my medical records show my sperm to be slightly lazy, but within a normal range. Obviously my sperm dictates my political and social views.

[El Kabong]

I'm somewhat in the middle on this.

I'm not against a welfare state and people are only human. You cannot guarantee a father figure will stick around, you cannot promise someone a job until retirement. You need safety nets for those people.

However, you cannot just abuse the system. 15 children is obviously a joke and shouldn't have been allowed. That is where I am less in the middle.

I'm not against a welfare state though. I grew up on the welfare state. However, in doing so, I determined that I would not put anyone else through it. It's not a fun way to grow up.

Understood, but originally welfare was for TEMPORARY help to get people back on their feet, to get them to a place where they could provide for their families. But now people live on it, they just accept the benefits of it without shame, without remorse, and they like this lady have the gall to demand MORE, not because they provide anything that benefits society but just simply because they ARE. The since of entitlement in the United States is at epidemic levels and it needs to be cut out like a cancer.

I belong to groups who help the needy and less fortunate I help these people of my own free will. Not with taxpayer money, not with funds the government has pillaged from other citizens, but with my OWN funds and that is the way it should work. Neighbor should help neighbor of their own free will and I believe there would be less of a since of entitlement and that families would stick together, and that people wouldn't come to depend on the help but rather get to the point where they help themselves. Perhaps that's a little too altruistic to work, but that's how I feel.

[Gandalf]

In saying that though, you are of a culture that provides a minimum wage of 7 dollars or so an hour and which has gutted its manufacturing sector. For many in the service sector you pay 2 dollars 15 an hour. Do you really think you owe nothing to those people working 40 hours a week in the lowest paid sectors of society? At the very least you owe a minimum living wage. You charity is irrelevant to that basic economic argument.

The person above is obviously an extreme case, and like I suggested, she should be physically capped. However, I don't think most take any great pleasure in living on welfare. Surely a progressive society should be encouraging some level of nomalcy in the balance.

I'm a poor person to be debating with as I am quite conservative on this issue. I grew up in a poor family and much of my life has been a rebellion against it. Clearly, I believe people should plan for their future and if child rearing is so important then you should choose that carefully as the world isn't at its best.

[El Kabong]

In saying that though, you are of a culture that provides a minimum wage of 7 dollars or so an hour and which has gutted its manufacturing sector. For many in the service sector you pay 2 dollars 15 an hour. Do you really think you owe nothing to those people working 40 hours a week in the lowest paid sectors of society? At the very least you owe a minimum living wage. You charity is irrelevant to that basic economic argument.

The person above is obviously an extreme case, and like I suggested, she should be physically capped. However, I don't think most take any great pleasure in living on welfare. Surely a progressive society should be encouraging some level of nomalcy in the balance.

I'm a poor person to be debating with as I am quite conservative on this issue. I grew up in a poor family and much of my life has been a rebellion against it. Clearly, I believe people should plan for their future and if child rearing is so important then you should choose that carefully as the world isn't at its best.

Do you know how many, what kinds, and who does jobs that are minimum wage?

Waiters/Waitresses might make $2 something an hour, but they are tipped and don't believe that they are taxed on 100% of those tips. In America we DID try to not having tipping, but it is here and it's good for what it's worth.

I owe nothing to nobody. Living Wage, who determines what that is miles? Did you know that Welfare pays MORE than minimum wage. Also if people are OWED then what am I owed miles? There are certainly people wealthier than me.

My charity is not irrelevant to those I help and to suggest that is....well it's just typical of a person who doesn't know what they are talking about.

[Fenster]

In saying that though, you are of a culture that provides a minimum wage of 7 dollars or so an hour and which has gutted its manufacturing sector. For many in the service sector you pay 2 dollars 15 an hour. Do you really think you owe nothing to those people working 40 hours a week in the lowest paid sectors of society? At the very least you owe a minimum living wage. You charity is irrelevant to that basic economic argument.

The person above is obviously an extreme case, and like I suggested, she should be physically capped. However, I don't think most take any great pleasure in living on welfare. Surely a progressive society should be encouraging some level of nomalcy in the balance.

I'm a poor person to be debating with as I am quite conservative on this issue. I grew up in a poor family and much of my life has been a rebellion against it. Clearly, I believe people should plan for their future and if child rearing is so important then you should choose that carefully as the world isn't at its best.

Do you know how many, what kinds, and who does jobs that are minimum wage?

Waiters/Waitresses might make $2 something an hour, but they are tipped and don't believe that they are taxed on 100% of those tips. In America we DID try to not having tipping, but it is here and it's good for what it's worth.

I owe nothing to nobody. Living Wage, who determines what that is miles? Did you know that Welfare pays MORE than minimum wage. Also if people are OWED then what am I owed miles? There are certainly people wealthier than me.

My charity is not irrelevant to those I help and to suggest that is....well it's just typical of a person who doesn't know what they are talking about.

What groups do you belong too and why do it?

[Beanflicker]

Understood, but originally welfare was for TEMPORARY help to get people back on their feet, to get them to a place where they could provide for their families. But now people live on it, they just accept the benefits of it without shame, without remorse, and they like this lady have the gall to demand MORE, not because they provide anything that benefits society but just simply because they ARE. The since of entitlement in the United States is at epidemic levels and it needs to be cut out like a cancer.

Couldn't agree more. I have a friend who's a social worker and she's confirmed this fact many times. Of course there are people using it the way it's supposed to work, ie a TEMPORARY safety net, but like with anything you have tons of people abusing it. She's seen everything, including women who have more kids because of the extra money they get, and of course people who claim welfare and say they live alone so they get more, when in reality they live with a boyfriend/girlfriend.

These people sicken me. I get attacked for saying that because as a middle class white guy, apparently I'm not allowed to criticize anybody who isn't also a middle class white guy. But the entitled attitudes and the complete lack of shame that these welfare abusers have makes me physically ill.