Angel Adams, 37 yrs old with 15 kids and complaining about lack of gov't assistance

[El Kabong]

VC, if miles didn't tell people how to live how would they get by

[Gandalf]

A minimum wage exists to provide a basic means to survive, or at least it should. It should be enough to cover your living costs and get by month to month. Obviously 7 US dollars does not provide that to any sufficient degree whence something like 50 million people needing food stamps. Now if there are effective controls on corporations in regards to outsourcing, unchecked immigration etc, then obviously there will still be jobs.

In regards to your abhorrent views on service industry workers, then I think you are quite repugnant. You shouldn't need to rely on the charity of a customer to top up 2.15 an hour. How about you just pay a fair wage of 20 dollars if that is what the worker will end up taking home. Instead, you are asking the worker to whore themselves to the highest paying bidder. It is sick when all you are doing at the end of the day is buying a drink.

The unemployment of young Britains today is akin to the problem in America. The minimum wage is not relevant, but what is relevent is outsourcing and unchecked immigration. I think these are serious problems and those alone will create unemployment for young natives and decrease the numbers of available jobs. I think already in the UK young workers are earning less than the minimum wage.

When it comes to dismissing people who flip burgers and clean toilets, I think you again display a pompous arrogance and disregard for important jobs. These things have to be done and in truth, not many want to do them. However, there is a demand for hygiene and certainly in your country a high demand for obesity. Again, what is the harm in paying the Mc'D's worker 18 bucks an hour? If they work hard and are helping to make the branch money then they deserve more than the bare minimum. That is where you don't value people, they are a mere commodity to be exploited. I disagree with that on political, moral, and ethical grounds.

I think you come across as someone who has been brainwashed into believing the Chicago school economics view of globalisation. Of course it has been great for the US elite, but for many Americans it means enhanced poverty and around the world it means the exploitation of labour markets. Personally, I am very much against that world view.

And yes, Lyle. Very insightful. What I encourage is that society should care more for it's home labour resources as eventually when the skeleton is stripped, the entire thing will come crashing down like a house of cards. The middle classes have been eroded for 40 years, 50 million are on food stamps, the end isn't going to be pretty. The Soviet Union collapsed after overextending itself, the US appears to be gradually getting there. The US is maybe not that far behind. I also encourage people not to take part in the consumer economy. Strip your life down to the essentials and plan well, because ultimately the pension and security you thought the state would provide might not be there. Certainly don't rely on the US dollar and make sure you know how to grow potatoes.

[VictorCharlie]

A minimum wage exists to provide a basic means to survive, or at least it should. It should be enough to cover your living costs and get by month to month. Obviously 7 US dollars does not provide that to any sufficient degree whence something like 50 million people needing food stamps. Now if there are effective controls on corporations in regards to outsourcing, unchecked immigration etc, then obviously there will still be jobs.

A min. wage exists to pander to people. It discriminates against unskilled workers and nothing more. See the 3rd video I posted for succinct look at the damage the minimum wage does.

In regards to your abhorrent views on service industry workers, then I think you are quite repugnant. You shouldn't need to rely on the charity of a customer to top up 2.15 an hour. How about you just pay a fair wage of 20 dollars if that is what the worker will end up taking home. Instead, you are asking the worker to whore themselves to the highest paying bidder. It is sick when all you are doing at the end of the day is buying a drink.

It isn't charity. It is a fair exchange for service rendered. I've already explained how this is a better system for the server, employer and customer. Everyone wins except ignorant whiny British expats that know nothing about how things work in a country he has never been in.

What is relevent is outsourcing and unchecked immigration.

What is good is freedom of movement and exchange of commerce, culture and goods regardless of borders. Only bigots like yourself think you can put up a wall and hide from those pesky foreigners.
Interesting article about open borders and peace

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detai...#axzz2hjSmEKvm

When it comes to dismissing people who flip burgers and clean toilets, I think you again display a pompous arrogance and disregard for important jobs.

This is pretty rich considering how dismissive you are of my profession. That being said how/when was I dismissive of those professions? I said they didn't require a high level of skill. I dont' think that is really debatable.

Again, what is the harm in paying the Mc'D's worker 18 bucks an hour?

There isn't anything wrong with that if the employer believes the worker's labor is worth that much and vice/versa but that is an agreement for them to come to and none of your business. Why not just allow people to negotiate their own wages w/o gov't intrusion? I mean if we are going to have a minimum wage why not just make it $100 dollars an hour and we can all be rich.

That is where you don't value people, they are a mere commodity to be exploited. I disagree with that on political, moral, and ethical grounds.

I do value people, so much that I think what they decide to work for or pay their employees is their own decision but please get off your moral high horse. You are the same guy that was upset you got a slavic cabby and a Pakistani hotel clerk the last time you were home.

What I encourage is that society should care more for it's home labour resources as eventually when the skeleton is stripped, the entire thing will come crashing down like a house of cards. The middle classes have been eroded for 40 years, 50 million are on food stamps, the end isn't going to be pretty.

People should care more but what you encourage is the empowering of government to coerce people into giving up the fruits of their labor through a threat of violence to spend as you best see fit. Compassion for one's fellow man is an honorable thing but advocating for people to do it at gunpoint is not. See the video I posted about George. The narrator even has a very "British" accent and not foreign so you can relate.

[Spicoli]

A minimum wage is a introductory wage and should be looked at just a beginning, not a long term existence. If you choose to have and sustain a family you should be expected to increase that ability to provide beyond the bare essential. The Government...all of them...have created the welfare state and count on it, they nurture and encourage it and what they both have in common is the need for term limits!

[Gandalf]

No, I disagree with you on practically everything you say. We clearly have very different views on how society should reward people. People who do useful things in society should be rewarded for their efforts. Working hard is something everyone should aspire to and the motivation to do so is in being paid a fair wage. If that isn't happening then society is failing them. A soldier is paid by the government, perhaps cleaners should be too. Teaching and the military are hardly jobs for a man with a thing for small government. Maybe they should be paid 2 dollars an hour and the public can decide through charity what more to give them. I guess you would have more soldiers working in bars and less dead foreigners overseas.

I find your views on tipping to be mildly absurd and perhaps it is you that is ignorant of the norms of other countries. A minimal tip is perhaps expected in some places, however quite often there is a service charge and that should suffice and would of course be paid in the wages. Certainly here it would be regarded as an insult by many to be offered a tip. Being paid less than minimum wage and then be expected to be servile and creepy around people who just want a quiet drink is also an insult to the paying customer. Pay the worker and charge what you need to charge.

My views on immigration might seem backwards to someone like you or people who have this vision of a multi cultural utopia. However, it simply doesn't work. I live in a place where immigration is checked and consequently local people drive the taxis, work in hotels, pick the fruit etc etc. It seems to work. There is little societal unrest, there are no ghetto's full of white people, certainly no 'terrorists' which in the UK at least, seem to be angry people who failed to integrate. The system here is working. You invite skilled labour and only let them stay temporarily. This is how things work in most countries, labour is not unchecked and it should certainly never be so.

You have to respect what the society is and if there is change it should be gradual. The UK has allowed unchecked immigration for nearly 2 decades and the society seems to have become warped and it isn't the minimum wage to blame. The minumum wage has declined and still there are no jobs. I have seen both sides of the coin and see which one favours the local populace. It is better to control your country and protect your labour force.

Also, for sure I believe people who clean toilets are every bit as important as other jobs. The least society can do is provide them a living wage. I am not advocating communism, but certainly socialism so that there is a more level playing field. The current system frowns upon people who won't work and yet doesn't pay enough to do work. It's simply not good enough and in the case of your own country which has unbelievable levels of wealth disparity, I absolutely think you are playing a dangerous game. It's just untenable.

Actually, one thing I am getting sick of is you branding around words like bigot in every thread. Yes, I am very much opposed to your political and military system, but people are just people. Some of my favourite people are American, but they don't get defensive or nationalistic and accept the faults. 'Oh, but you are from overseas and cannot comment'. On the whole I try to stay clean with you when it would be all too easy to attack your contradictions which are all too obvious and yet in every post you are using inflammatory language. I expect it of someone like Lyle, but I thought we were on more neutral ground.

I see little reason to discuss things with you on that basis. Rather than respond to views that are clearly odd with an insult or 4 thrown in for good measure, I will not respond. And before Lyle jumps in by saying that I should be on 2 dollars an hour, I am paid for by the market too, which I am not against. I just don't believe massive wealth inequalities should be the norm. Students pay their tuition and sign up for my classes. If there was no demand, then I should rightly be on my heels. In fact I prefer the private teaching sector, as there are no safety nets and you either perform or else don't and deal with the consequences. That doesn't mean that the person cleaning toilets doesn't deserve a living wage though. He does his job well, and though not educated, he has a right to live. In Australia the McDonald's worker has a minimum wage of 16 dollars. I don't see their economy collapsing. They also control their immigration to a much more healthy degree. Again, Australia bucks the trend as dictated by the Chicago school, which only works in totalitarian regimes largely backed up by force.

[El Kabong]

No, I disagree with you on practically everything you say.

Well isn't that new and different

Miles here's the deal, you say "Charity can't solve all of society's ills" however you are of the belief that government CAN? Why because it is backed by force of law? Has government made things better or worse for society? If you look at what the welfare state alone has done to African-American families then I would argue that government has done more harm than good, whatever intentions LBJ et al had for welfare programs their system has made things much worse for a lot of people it is so bad it has demolished the very institution of family life among African-Americans which has lead to more crime, more prison, more people on the dole, more babies having babies, and an entitlement mentality that has grown out of control.

I'm of the opinion that the more government tries to do the worse things get

[VictorCharlie]

I find your views on tipping to be mildly absurd and perhaps it is you that is
ignorant of the norms of other countries

One of us has never been to the US and one of us has lived here most of their lives, worked as a server and run a service business but its me whose views on a tip vs wage based salary in the US is absurd? I love you Miles. You bring great comedic relief to my day. We aren't talking about other countries. We are talking about the US. It is a superior system and all parties in the US approve of it. Mind your own business. It should also be noted that in the event that an employee makes less than minimum wage after tips that the employer must make up the difference.

Actually, one thing I am getting sick of is you branding around words like bigot in every thread. Yes, I am very much opposed to your political and military system, but people are just people. Some of my favourite people are American, but they don't get defensive or nationalistic and accept the faults. 'Oh, but you are from overseas and cannot comment'. On the whole I try to stay clean with you when it would be all too easy to attack your contradictions which are all too obvious and yet in every post you are using inflammatory language. I expect it of someone like Lyle, but I thought we were on more
neutral ground.

Miles, you are insulting in just about every response to me. I'm brainwashed, disgusting, my education is poor, I'm a loser b/c of my profession, I couldn't do anything else and on and on. You consistently post about the US despite never being there and proven time and again to not be well informed on it. Your postings about the US are close minded, lack objectivity and regularly results in personal attacks on people that ACTUALLY live and know the country. So yes I find your internet persona somewhat bigoted. If that hurts your feelings then tough.

Rather than respond to views that are clearly odd with an insult or 4 thrown
in for good measure, I will not respond.

Sure, just like your multiple "I'm leaving Saddos threads".

[El Kabong]

So yes I find your internet persona somewhat bigoted. If that hurts your feelings then tough.

When pray tell, has miles EVER concerned himself with the feelings of anyone he argues with? I mean if he DID concern himself with the feelings of others he certainly wouldn't personally attack other members of this site...let's be honest, I'm no angel I dish out a lot but I take my fair share of heat. I'm the only poster here with a fucking webstalker who will routinely sign up just to make 1 vile post about me and have his account deleted. But shit, I have a conscience, I feel bad when I am merciless in ripping someone apart when they didn't deserve it or earn it...I do. I have never seen that from miles, never ever. I have seen him navel gaze, and sulk, and whine about how nobody understands him like he's some 14 year old emo girl, but I haven't seen him say "You know what, calling VC a baby killer or a murderer was probably well over the line"....maybe he has, but he always comes back to calling those names.


miles, do you feel you're above reproach here? Do you feel that us mere mortals are somehow beneath you? You teach English in South Korea a place that wouldn't exist if not for the American Armed Forces....get over yourself