What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

[Max Power]

Glad to be of service!

Although what side of the divide the generational ignorance is on I beg to differ!

Generational progression. That's what I see.

I'm open to Lennox Lewis flogging his way to the top but not an ancient fighter like Ali and especially not my favourite Frazier!

[powerpuncher]

heres a serious question:

at what point does a sport stop progressing? for example, in 1,000 years, will boxers really be any better than they were 100 years before that? is there always more to learn in craft or does there come a point where all the craft has already been learned and it just comes down to talent and skill?

[Max Power]

I'm open to the idea that there comes a point where there is barely any more progress to be made as far as the art of boxing is concerned. There will always be increases is size at HW and in athleticism although those improvements also run in diminishing returns over time.

The European's have influenced boxing with their preferred long and technical styles and the general increase in power of the athletes across all weight ranges, particularly at HW because of the sizes has clearly led top boxers away from inside game and more towards a defensive, outside approach.

I think in the future, unfortunately, boxing is going to become increasingly a safety first affair because already the punches have become so hard that taking even a few flush shots could spell KO. Caution means survival and that increases your chance of winning. An overly aggressive fighter with poor defence will probably not make it far.

The era of the punch bags is long over. I know one thing, if boxing craft has peaked, it certainly was not in the 70's!

[La Cucaracha]

WladKlits chin is in any era

[Max Power]

Horseshit! Wladimir Klitschko and Lennox Lewis too incidentally only ever got put down by very hard hitters despite any other reasons. There's not too many hitters that could trouble Wlad in the 70's.

Foreman, Lyle sure that's about it. Shavers and Liston- power overrated and terrible attacking skills.

And I don't think Frazier could knock out Wlad if he just stood there and let him wail!

No wonder Ali could use his head for a defence instead of good old modern reflexes, they literally did float like butterflies and stung like bees! His Parkinsons would have kicked in WAY earlier had he lived in more powerful times.

[La Cucaracha]

This is great

[Max Power]

LOL They did look funny. Just look at the bombs though.

A couple of facts..

Wladimir has never once been knocked out by a single punch.

Wladimir has always finished a fight on his feet.

Wladimir has only 1ce in 64 fights, repeat 1/64 times against an average opponent weight of 235lbs been knocked out by the "force" from punches being the sole reason (as opposed to gassing or health issues)

I think I will just come out and say it. Wlad's chin is not the best but it isn't THAT weak.

And yes Ali's chin is "overrated" because it was never tested against the kind of punchers Wlad's was.

He fought Foreman sure but how many flush shots did big George land on Ali's chin? Not too many. He did however require a trip to hospital for the damage to his body. Punch bag Ali was a specialist at taking a large accumulation of weak punches LOL. As demonstrated in War of the Punch Bags (Fight of the Century).

[powerpuncher]

Horseshit! Wladimir Klitschko and Lennox Lewis too incidentally only ever got put down by very hard hitters despite any other reasons. There's not too many hitters that could trouble Wlad in the 70's.

Foreman, Lyle sure that's about it. Shavers and Liston- power overrated and terrible attacking skills.

And I don't think Frazier could knock out Wlad if he just stood there and let him wail!

No wonder Ali could use his head for a defence instead of good old modern reflexes, they literally did float like butterflies and stung like bees! His Parkinsons would have kicked in WAY earlier had he lived in more powerful times.

the main problem with your argument is that it is all based on what you think and has no factual evidence. you think that frazier doesnt hit harder than wlad. im not saying that you are wrong but im saying that its just an opinion that has really no weight to it. you are also forgetting that HWs wore smaller gloves back at that time too. whether or not people hit harder now, smaller gloves would probably make up the difference.

remember that williamson knocked down wlad on a counter right and he only weighed 218 pounds for the fight. ali weighed 216 for the foreman fight. williamson was 6'4 and ali was 6'3. so they were essentially the same size. and you should know that williamson should have beaten wlad on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage but wlad got a gift. williamson isnt known to have a great chin (he got KO'd in 1 round by mesi) and ali is known to be able to take punishment. also, ali is definitely faster than williamson and has a better jab and footwork. if williamson was able to outbox wlad, ali definitely would be able to.

[brocktonblockbust]

I never saw Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali or Jack Dempsey (the 3 greatest of all time by the way) CRAWLIN' 'CROSS THE FLOOR ON ALL FOURS like a baby deer getting ready to take a large cock up the ass like wladimir klit-ko @El Kabong

[Max Power]

And yet Wladimir Klitschko would knock Marciano or Dempsey out 1st connected right hand and Ali would pose a similar threat and suffer the same fate as JeanMarc Mormeck... He would be dominated, brutalised and kindly advised to run around the block a few more times and compete in the cruiser division!

61-3 Wladimir Klitschko

28-4 Muhammad Ali

0-0 Rocky Marciano

in 200lb HW fights... Yeah those numbers tell the REAL story mate.

A favourite quote of mine I find appropriate at this point is appropriate...

It's easy to look like Muhammad Ali when all your fighting is turkey's

[ruthless rocco]

And yet Wladimir Klitschko would knock Marciano or Dempsey out 1st connected right hand and Ali would pose a similar threat and suffer the same fate as JeanMarc Mormeck... He would be dominated, brutalised and kindly advised to run around the block a few more times and compete in the cruiser division!

61-3 Wladimir Klitschko

28-4 Muhammad Ali

0-0 Rocky Marciano

in 200lb HW fights... Yeah those numbers tell the REAL story mate.

A favourite quote of mine I find appropriate at this point is appropriate...

It's easy to look like Muhammad Ali when all your fighting is turkey's

P4P Klitchko loses to both those those ALL TIME GREATS!

[Max Power]

the main problem with your argument is that it is all based on what you think and has no factual evidence. you think that frazier doesnt hit harder than wlad. im not saying that you are wrong but im saying that its just an opinion that has really no weight to it. you are also forgetting that HWs wore smaller gloves back at that time too. whether or not people hit harder now, smaller gloves would probably make up the difference.

remember that williamson knocked down wlad on a counter right and he only weighed 218 pounds for the fight. ali weighed 216 for the foreman fight. williamson was 6'4 and ali was 6'3. so they were essentially the same size. and you should know that williamson should have beaten wlad on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage but wlad got a gift. williamson isnt known to have a great chin (he got KO'd in 1 round by mesi) and ali is known to be able to take punishment. also, ali is definitely faster than williamson and has a better jab and footwork. if williamson was able to outbox wlad, ali definitely would be able to.

The main problem with your counter argument is that the same reason you have tried to use against me is the reason why you are wrong. My argument is backed up by 3 different forms of evidence...

Visual evidence... Modern fighters, look better than older ones and they look like they fight better and hit harder than their older counterparts.

Anecdotal evidence... The premise that everything improves in some way over time, it's beyond all doubt that athletes are getting fitter, faster and stronger and craft is being refined as time goes by, it cannot be otherwise.

And most importantly STATISTICAL evididence... Wladimir and his opponents have higher readings in the tale of the tape, better records against opponents who are bigger and with better records and their KO ratio's against their opponents are in general much higher than Ali and his opponents.

And all this is being even MORE generous to the old timers because their division was a combination of both Cruiserweight and Heavyweight today and modern Heavies are not ALLOWED to pad their records against such opponents. Once we view their records against modern criteria we see that Frazier only won 13 fights against real HW's and Ali only 28 times! Only HALF their opponents were even HW's and the further we go back in time the worse it gets!

If you want to say they were called HW's then so it counts then you also have to include all the cruiser fights of all the former cruisers that have stepped up to HW today like Adamek and Haye today and you can see then how Frazier and even Ali would probably not be any match for David Haye!

So when different forms of evidence converge on the same thing you can be pretty sure it's true, that's what bookies do when they make odds and that's why I have a good idea when to and when not to bet on a fight and usually pick them good when I do. And could fights be staged today between fighters past and present I can tell ya not many from the 70s would have great odds on them to win my friend!

And well done, you mention a fight Wladimir won KO2 as "evidence" that he would lose to one of the most punch weak champs of all time. I think Ali might perform better, he might survive to round 4 LOL! Seriously I could just as easily state that Ali was KD by 185lb! Cooper or beaten by 197lb Spinks who Waldimir wouldn't be allowed to fight and would knock out with 1 punch if he did so there's no way by this logic that Muhammad could beat Wladimir, same goes!

I respect the old timers but their time is history!

[Max Power]

P4P Klitchko loses to both those those ALL TIME GREATS!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

It's the HW division!

And the combatants fight the way they do based on what their body is suited for. Wladimir's style has been "perfected" based on his body and his opponents.

Ali's struggled against even his smaller opponents! Wladimir is a dominant champ, Ali was not! Let's not forget it's Ali who outsized his opponents more than Wladimir so don't give me lb 4 lb.

Want to start lb 4 lb, What about Mayweather? Don't tell me many from the past could compete with Floyd!

[ruthless rocco]

P4P Klitchko loses to both those those ALL TIME GREATS!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

It's the HW division!

And the combatants fight the way they do based on what their body is suited for. Wladimir's style has been "perfected" based on his body and his opponents.

Ali's struggled against even his smaller opponents! Wladimir is a dominant champ, Ali was not! Let's not forget it's Ali who outsized his opponents more than Wladimir so don't give me lb 4 lb.

Want to start lb 4 lb, What about Mayweather? Don't tell me many from the past could compete with Floyd!

If the All Time Greats from the past had the nutrition, scientific training methods and steroids that today's fighters have they'd DESTROY the current heavyweight division!

[Max Power]

Except most of those guys didn't have exceptionally well rounded skills. Some of them could barlely box and some were fundamentally flawed. So I'm sceptical whether that is even true.

Joe Louis did have well rounded skills, power and athleticism.

I will concede to you that if you take Joe Louis, make him taller and more heavily built through nutrition, give him pad work and modern interval training and the same recovery cycles etc than modern athletes enjoy and the steroids to allow him a higher volume of training without breaking down then maybe you are right. I can swallow this.

But if you take a guy like Marciano and scale him up I don't buy it. He would be Lamon Brewster. He'd come forward, be tenacious, hit really hard and take a lot of punches. But he'd be slower and still not especially skilled and he would be beat mate. But THAT's now just my opinion