Breaking down Margarito's " Plaster Myth "

[Beanflicker]

I remember reading this on another forum a year ago. Was that you posting under a different name? If not, you should have the common decency to source something if you're just going to copy and paste.

Anyway, the case is far from closed, at least for me.

As I understand it, nobody ever claimed he had Plaster of Paris in his glove. Supposedly it was a substance SIMILIAR to plaster of paris that hardened when exposed to oxygen. I'm FAR from a chemistry expert so what the physical difference is between the two substances, I don't know. But according to the guys who did the test, it wasn't plaster of paris but it did have the ability to harden.

As far as actual PoP goes, I don't think ONE experiment completely dispels it's potential usefulness in the loading of a glove. The experiment would have been done with numerous assumptions dictating the conditions of the experiment (i.e: the placement of the plaster, the amount of plaster used, ect). It's very conceivable that adding of PoP has to be done a certain way (placement, amount, ect) in order to be effective and not encounter the undesirable effects listed in the experiment - a way that is known to those who choose to utilize that kind of thing. This is just speculation on my part, but I do know that ONE FAILED EXPERIMENT DOES NOT PROVE IMPOSSIBILITY. The conditions might just need to be changed.

Then Capetillo began taping Margarito’s left hand, and Richardson asked if he could physically inspect the knuckle pad. Lohuis instructed Capetillo to pass the pad to Richardson. Naazim felt it and said that it seemed unusually hard. He then handed the pad to Lohuis, who agreed that it felt stiffer than is normally the case.

CSAC inspector David Pereda, who was in the room, later testified, “Naazim opened the gauze and pulled something out of it. He showed us what appeared to be an old gauze which had been used before and hardened from perhaps being sweaty and wet many times.”

Inspector Guevara testified, “It [the knuckle pad] was a clean new bandage. But within it, in the inner layers of it, was another bandage wrap. It was not as white as a new bandage wrap would be. It was used and it looked almost like it was sweat soaked and that’s what caused it to have the discoloration. It was harder in certain areas than it should be for pure gauze. It was definitely firm and hard. I believe there was a little bit of, it looked like old blood, on it.”

Mike Bray (an inspector who entered the dressing room during the dispute) recalled, “I observed what appeared to be a blood stain on the corner of the pad. I also noticed that it was moist and dirty-looking. The pad had the appearance that it had been used before. After looking at the pad closer, I could see a white substance smeared across the face of the pad and into the gauze. I touched the white substance, and it was hard to touch. It looked like a cast plaster or maybe a thicker type of white out that you would put on paper.”


By the way, it's very misleading to say they wouldn't allow a 2nd independant examination. No, they wouldn't allow Margarito's lawyer to use his own "expert" to analyze the inserts. That's not an independant examination: the "expert" would have been paid by Margarito. Why would they allow that? The commission is an independant, unbiased organization run by the federal government. What motive would they have had to fake a test against Margarito?

Margarito's trainer testified that he mistakenly put the illegal gauze wrap on Marg's hands because he grabbed the wrong one out of his bag. So the question isn't whether or not Marg's gloves were loaded: THEY WERE.

The only question is whether or not Margarito knew.

[ross]

Didnt De La Hoya and Trinidad use similar things? Screwed up tape or something that was placed berween the fingers?

[Fenster]

Whether or not Margarito knew about his "loaded" gloves, he didn't get to fight with them, so there's zero evidence that he ever fought a single contest with "loaded" gloves.

[IamInuit]

Whether or not Margarito knew about his "loaded" gloves, he didn't get to fight with them, so there's zero evidence that he ever fought a single contest with "loaded" gloves.

Fair enough but it does not take some giant leap of faith or reason for that matter to think that if his gloves were attempted to be loaded with an old dog like Shane then they most certainly were for an undefeated Cotto in his prime. Its almost naive to think otherwise.

[Fenster]

Whether or not Margarito knew about his "loaded" gloves, he didn't get to fight with them, so there's zero evidence that he ever fought a single contest with "loaded" gloves.

Fair enough but it does not take some giant leap of faith or reason for that matter to think that if his gloves were attempted to be loaded with an old dog like Shane then they most certainly were for an undefeated Cotto in his prime. Its almost naive to think otherwise.

I fully accept that it's possible the Mosley incident suggests that it wasn't the first time he had "loaded" gloves. However, as the counter argument in this Pro-Margarito thread showed, it's not even clear whether or not Margarito knew his gloves were "loaded."

How did his trainer get away with "loading" his gloves for so long without being caught? He's had 47 fights. Had nobody ever seen his hands wrapped before? Now that's what you call naive.

[El Kabong]

Yeah "no evidence"

[Kirkland Laing]

It's the pads that they out over the knuckles that were juiced. Instead of being made with just gauze they were made with old gauze and plaster of paris powder. Sweat during the fight would have caused the stuff to harden the whole thing into a weapon.

I'm still hoping the cheating cunt has to make a comeback and gets his brains scrambled properly.

[beenKOed]

Whether or not Margarito knew about his "loaded" gloves, he didn't get to fight with them, so there's zero evidence that he ever fought a single contest with "loaded" gloves.

Fair enough but it does not take some giant leap of faith or reason for that matter to think that if his gloves were attempted to be loaded with an old dog like Shane then they most certainly were for an undefeated Cotto in his prime. Its almost naive to think otherwise.

I fully accept that it's possible the Mosley incident suggests that it wasn't the first time he had "loaded" gloves. However, as the counter argument in this Pro-Margarito thread showed, it's not even clear whether or not Margarito knew his gloves were "loaded."

How did his trainer get away with "loading" his gloves for so long without being caught? He's had 47 fights. Had nobody ever seen his hands wrapped before? Now that's what you call naive.

Naive? They did it a few times and got away with it, so it became SOP. Maybe those watching the hands being wrapped were naive, being honorable men, they didn't expect a cheating SOB to cheat in front of them.
Naive? If you expect anyone to believe Margarito didn't know what was happening with his wraps and gloves , you are the naive one.
How many times has Margarito wrapped his own hands? How many times has he watched his hands bring wrapped? How many times has he wrapped other fighters hands? How many times has he watched other fighters being wrapped? So fight nite comes and you don't think he would notice something different? That's bullshit, Sir!

[Fenster]

Whether or not Margarito knew about his "loaded" gloves, he didn't get to fight with them, so there's zero evidence that he ever fought a single contest with "loaded" gloves.

Fair enough but it does not take some giant leap of faith or reason for that matter to think that if his gloves were attempted to be loaded with an old dog like Shane then they most certainly were for an undefeated Cotto in his prime. Its almost naive to think otherwise.

I fully accept that it's possible the Mosley incident suggests that it wasn't the first time he had "loaded" gloves. However, as the counter argument in this Pro-Margarito thread showed, it's not even clear whether or not Margarito knew his gloves were "loaded."

How did his trainer get away with "loading" his gloves for so long without being caught? He's had 47 fights. Had nobody ever seen his hands wrapped before? Now that's what you call naive.

Naive? They did it a few times and got away with it, so it became SOP. Maybe those watching the hands being wrapped were naive, being honorable men, they didn't expect a cheating SOB to cheat in front of them.
Naive? If you expect anyone to believe Margarito didn't know what was happening with his wraps and gloves , you are the naive one.
How many times has Margarito wrapped his own hands? How many times has he watched his hands bring wrapped? How many times has he wrapped other fighters hands? How many times has he watched other fighters being wrapped? So fight nite comes and you don't think he would notice something different? That's bullshit, Sir!

1. When I said "naive" I was referring to the inspection of his hands being wrapped in previous fights.

2. It's bullshit that Margarito couldn't have known his gloves were "loaded," right? Well not according to many of the most famous trainers in the world, including Naazim Richardson.

Dan Birmingham: “My guys watch me closely when I wrap. But what you’re talking about here happens pretty quickly. The pad goes on and then you put more gauze over it. So sure; it’s possible that the fighter wouldn’t know.”

Pat Burns: “Some fighters don’t pay attention when their hands are being wrapped. They’re listening to music or talking to someone or watching a television monitor. And even if they’re watching, they’re not wondering what’s in the knuckle pad. If I wanted to put a few layers of hardened gauze inside a fighter’s knuckle pads, I could and the fighter would never know.”

Freddie Roach: “If I did something like that, which I wouldn’t, I think I could do it without my fighter knowing. And if I was the fighter; Eddie Futch [who trained Roach] would never have done something like that. But if he had, I think he could have kept it secret from me.”

Don Turner: “I wouldn’t do it. I don’t cheat. But if I wanted to, unless what I was putting into the knuckle pad was very heavy, I could do it in a way that the fighter wouldn’t know. Even if the fighter is watching me wrap, he might not know because he wouldn’t see or feel the difference.”

Emanuel Steward: “My experience has been that a fighter watches very closely when his hands are being taped. But in a situation like this, it’s definitely possible that a trainer could put an insert in the knuckle pad without the fighter knowing. When I get in the dressing room before a fight, one of the first things I do is make two knuckle pads and put them on the table. I don’t put them in my bag. I leave them out on the table, and so does every other trainer I know of. So I have a hard time believing that Capetillo took the wrong knuckle pads out of his bag by mistake. But the fighter doesn’t watch me make the knuckle pads. A lot of times, the fighter isn’t even there when I make them. So the fighter wouldn’t know if I put something inside the pads unless I told him or the pads were heavy enough that he could feel a difference.”

Naazim Richardson: “I’m the wrong person to ask about this. If a guy is driving a truck and tries to run my daughter over and misses, don’t ask me what the punishment should be. But to be fair, yes, a fighter might not know.”

Don't shoot the messenger

[Beanflicker]

People gave Mayweather a lot of shit he started demanding Olympic-style drug testing outside of the standard testing. The sentiment was "who the fuck is this guy to demand that, that's the commissions job, ect."

Well the sad fact is THE COMMISSIONS ARE RARELY CATCHING THE CHEATERS! Guys using PED's (for the most part) aren't caught with drug tests, they're caught WAY after the fact when the FBI busts a steroid lab and finds the names of famous athletes on receipts. And in this case, if Richardson isn't there watching the wraps being done, Margarito fights with those wraps and whatever the fuck substance was in them.

It's a losing battle, and it's a battle the commissions largely don't want to fight. For most sports, PED's are a victimless crime and it means more money. Not only are they helping athletes accomplish incredible feats while they are in their primes - feats that bring more money to the sport and more money to trickle down to everyone else - it increases their window of earning by allowing them to play at a high level well into their 40s, which is something that was largely unheard of decades ago.

So on one side you have these huge steroid labs, financed by multi-millionaires who cater to multi-million dollar elite athletes who are paying top dollar for substances that are going to make them better athletes and more money. And these multi-millionaires (Victor Conte from BALCO for example) spend their multi-millions developing ways to buck the system and cheat the tests. Look up "the clear". It was a type of steroid synthesized SPECIFICALLY to be undetectable and help athletes cheat the tests.

Then on the other side, you have the commissions, which are organizations funded and controlled by the federal government. With the US's deficit, do you really think Barack Obama is going to divert millions for the commissions to catch up to these labs and stop athletes from taking a substance that's going to help them hit more home runs? Of course not. These commission guys have cushy jobs and want to do the bare minimum to create and illusion of integrity and an even playing field.

The truth is, people by and large don't give a shit. They just want the illusion. Sports fans want to believe in some fairy tale where sports are all about integrity and honest competition, and boxing fans want to believe in nonsense about a warrior's code of honor and all that horse shit. It's nonsense.

Tyson is the best example. There are guys on this board that will say - with the same confidence they would have telling you what country they're from - that Tyson never used PED's. Right, because why would a guy who admitted to cheating drug tests for narcotics with a fake urine sample be suspected of any substance cheating. No, that's impossible. The guy who bit a man's ear off, who smashed countless opponents with his elbows and forearms on the inside, who brawled with Lennox at a press conference and bit his leg, who told opponents that he was going to drive their nose into their brain, eat their children and stomp on their testicles... of course he had way too much respect and admiration for his opponents than to ever use PED's.

[Beanflicker]

Whether or not Margarito knew about his "loaded" gloves, he didn't get to fight with them, so there's zero evidence that he ever fought a single contest with "loaded" gloves.

100%. Personally I believe he did, but that's just speculation on my part.

[IamInuit]

Didnt De La Hoya and Trinidad use similar things? Screwed up tape or something that was placed berween the fingers?

With Tito it was gauze direction not inserts and his gloves were signed off 39 times before using the same method. With Tito it was part of the whole flag thing and taking his head out of the fight.

With Oscar Roach used to twist shipping tape, that clear stuff and I have no clue how they got away with actually using that as part of their wrap around.

[ross]

Didnt De La Hoya and Trinidad use similar things? Screwed up tape or something that was placed berween the fingers?

With Tito it was gauze direction not inserts and his gloves were signed off 39 times before using the same method. With Tito it was part of the whole flag thing and taking his head out of the fight.

With Oscar Roach used to twist shipping tape, that clear stuff and I have no clue how they got away with actually using that as part of their wrap around.

It was Oscar.

The more you learn the more its just one upmanship. Drugs, faking samples, refusing tests, shaving gloves, taping gloves, loading wraps etc.....

Its frustrating because the big name boxers will get a certain amount of leeway because they generate money.

I dont believe he ever did but Mike Tyson was THE biggest gravy train. If he ever tested positive or was found to have anything in his gloves you can bet that whoever discovered it would think twice before saying anything. Mike doesnt fight... Thats millions for everyone down the pan. Even his opponent would probably turn a blind eye, on a career high payday.

That was just an example of why certain people might be getting away with cheating.