Enough of this "Self-Defense" nonsense crap!!

[Beanflicker]

It's a different world than I know up here in Canada. I defended Zimmerman because, according to the law, he was not guilty.

But the thought of nosy, hot tempered guys walking around with pistols is pretty scary.

It's crazy to think that a situation which probably would have ended with a bloody nose and a black eye for someone where I live, ends up as a (potential) multiple homicide somewhere else.

[El Kabong]

Yeah disarm the public.....that ALWAYS makes things better. I mean why make it more difficult for the government to put the law abiding citizen under their boot? IF a tyrant WAS to gain the power of the Presidency I'm sure an increasing drone army along with soldiers ready to blindly obey orders would be more than willing to hear out any complaints the average citizen might have.

If we make guns illegal why I'm sure the gang bangs and thugs will see the light and not carry weapons.....it'll be peace on Earth, all we have to do is legislate it

[Beanflicker]

Yeah disarm the public.....that ALWAYS makes things better. I mean why make it more difficult for the government to put the law abiding citizen under their boot? IF a tyrant WAS to gain the power of the Presidency I'm sure an increasing drone army along with soldiers ready to blindly obey orders would be more than willing to hear out any complaints the average citizen might have.

If we make guns illegal why I'm sure the gang bangs and thugs will see the light and not carry weapons.....it'll be peace on Earth, all we have to do is legislate it

I support arming yourself in America, because like you said there are bad guys with guns and you need to even the playing field.

But I have to say, it's very nice living in a place where nobody is carrying a gun around with them. I've never even been in a street fight.

There's pros and cons to both sides. Instances like these are the cons: situations like these that SHOULD end up as a shouting match at best (fist fight at worse) are leading to shots being fired and people being killed.

It's a fucking mess and I'm so happy I don't have to deal with it.

[TitoFan]

Yeah disarm the public.....that ALWAYS makes things better. I mean why make it more difficult for the government to put the law abiding citizen under their boot? IF a tyrant WAS to gain the power of the Presidency I'm sure an increasing drone army along with soldiers ready to blindly obey orders would be more than willing to hear out any complaints the average citizen might have.

If we make guns illegal why I'm sure the gang bangs and thugs will see the light and not carry weapons.....it'll be peace on Earth, all we have to do is legislate it

Who said anything about disarming the public?

I'm saying, if found guilty, he should be hung, drawn, and quartered as a warning to all would-be, half-wit vigilantes out there who think they have a right to use their guns whenever they damn well please.

It's called a deterrent.

[Beanflicker]

I'm saying, if found guilty, he should be hung, drawn, and quartered as a warning to all would-be, half-wit vigilantes out there who think they have a right to use their guns whenever they damn well please.

It's called a deterrent.

Well it's not about vigilantes, it's about self defense. As unfortunate as these situations are, it doesn't discount the fact that there are also a lot of legitimate cases where somebody uses a gun to protect themselves from bodily harm or death and I'd hate to see those people get fucked with life sentences.

That's a big reason why I supported Zimmerman: who followed who, who was armed, how old was each guy, ect was irrelevant: if you're attacked you can use a firearm to protect yourself, and there's no doubt that Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and was doing legit damage.

Now we're getting cases where guys are getting shot for arguing about talking in a movie theater or pumping music too loud. Fuck
This case is a lot more murky (guy fleeing scene and not calling cops,

[TitoFan]

I'm saying, if found guilty, he should be hung, drawn, and quartered as a warning to all would-be, half-wit vigilantes out there who think they have a right to use their guns whenever they damn well please.

It's called a deterrent.

Well it's not about vigilantes, it's about self defense. As unfortunate as these situations are, it doesn't discount the fact that there are also a lot of legitimate cases where somebody uses a gun to protect themselves from bodily harm or death and I'd hate to see those people get fucked with life sentences.

That's a big reason why I supported Zimmerman: who followed who, who was armed, how old was each guy, ect was irrelevant: if you're attacked you can use a firearm to protect yourself, and there's no doubt that Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and was doing legit damage.

Now we're getting cases where guys are getting shot for arguing about talking in a movie theater or pumping music too loud. Fuck
This case is a lot more murky (guy fleeing scene and not calling cops,

As much as I dislike Zimmerman, Bean... it's a hell of a stretch to even begin to compare the two. Anything but a life sentence (I'll get off the "drawn and quartered" bit) to Dunn just sends a message that it's ok to have itchy trigger fingers in the name of "self-defense". Like you yourself said, it opens up the door to guys getting shot for talking in movie theaters or playing music too loud. IMO, it's a HUGELY DANGEROUS precedent, and we're walking on thin ice here. Somehow, these backwoods morons need to be deterred from turning the country into a free-for-all. Like I've always said, no one ever cares about the Trayvon Martins or the Jordan Davises...... until it happens to someone close to them.

I'm exaggerating about executing Michael Dunn...... but not by much. He's a poster boy for white trash (yes... I realize that's probably racist).... and the fact he didn't notify the police and went out for pizza afterwards shows just how much of a menace to society he is.

And I'm sorry, but the fact that he was able to pack heat made all the difference in the world. You think had he not been armed he would've had the balls to complain about some loud music? No. But he wanted to show off his macho side to his girlfriend.... so he blew away the "thugs".

I fucking hate Michael Dunn and all the scumbuckets like him that roam the Earth.
I changed my mind.
Execute the motherf_cker.

[Beanflicker]

As much as I dislike Zimmerman, Bean... it's a hell of a stretch to even begin to compare the two. Anything but a life sentence (I'll get off the "drawn and quartered" bit) to Dunn just sends a message that it's ok to have itchy trigger fingers in the name of "self-defense". Like you yourself said, it opens up the door to guys getting shot for talking in movie theaters or playing music too loud. IMO, it's a HUGELY DANGEROUS precedent, and we're walking on thin ice here. Somehow, these backwoods morons need to be deterred from turning the country into a free-for-all. Like I've always said, no one ever cares about the Trayvon Martins or the Jordan Davises...... until it happens to someone close to them.

I'm exaggerating about executing Michael Dunn...... but not by much. He's a poster boy for white trash (yes... I realize that's probably racist).... and the fact he didn't notify the police and went out for pizza afterwards shows just how much of a menace to society he is.

And I'm sorry, but the fact that he was able to pack heat made all the difference in the world. You think had he not been armed he would've had the balls to complain about some loud music? No. But he wanted to show off his macho side to his girlfriend.... so he blew away the "thugs".

I fucking hate Michael Dunn and all the scumbuckets like him that roam the Earth.
I changed my mind.
Execute the motherf_cker.

I don't think it's going to set any precendent, the law is pretty straight forward in terms of Stand Your Ground and general self defense.

I don't buy the notion that his gun gave him balls to complain about music and lead to this incident. He didn't have the gun on his person (it was in the glove compartment) and he's arguing with four guys who are sitting in their car, meaning that if they are armed (which is a strong possibility), not only do they have quicker access to their guns than he does, he's also now outnumbered 4 to 1. We're talking about a middle aged white guy vs 4 black guys. I don't think he was planning on a ruckus.

I didn't know about this case until this thread, so I don't think I know enough about the evidence to make a real judgement, because I know how wrong most people were about Zimmerman. I admit I have a lot of suspicions about this guy for a number of reasons (his alcohol consumption, fleeing the scene and not calling the police, ect). But who's to say that his defense story isn't true? That there was a weapon that was pulled on him that was ditched after the fact (the victims friends also fleed the scene and returned later). The victim's dad apparently even testified that there were a lot of inconsistencies in the stories of the three friends.

I think reaching emotionally-charged, knee-jerk conclusions about situations like these is always harmful, though.

[bradlee180]

Yanks are gun-crazy violent people. Averages out to 88 guns per 100 citizens.

Lots of guns here in canada too, but mostly hunting rifles. Down south, those Yanks arm themselves to the teeth with assault rifles, M-16s, pistols, basically firearms not designed for hunting but solely for killing people with.

On average, 85 Americans are killed per day from guns.

14 600 Americans murdered per year in the USA.

A few years back, Chicago, just that single city, had more dead Yanks in a single year than the Iraqis and Afghans managed to inflict in the same year.

That's America.

[Beanflicker]

Yanks are gun-crazy violent people. Averages out to 88 guns per 100 citizens.

Lots of guns here in canada too, but mostly hunting rifles. Down south, those Yanks arm themselves to the teeth with assault rifles, M-16s, pistols, basically firearms not designed for hunting but solely for killing people with.

On average, 85 Americans are killed per day from guns.

14 600 Americans murdered per year in the USA.

A few years back, Chicago, just that single city, had more dead Yanks in a single year than the Iraqis and Afghans managed to inflict in the same year.

That's America.

Yup. It's a very difficult situation with a lot of moving parts. Like I said, I'm just glad us Canadians don't have to deal with it.

There's pros and cons to each stance. On one hand, I think it's very scary that arguments are leading to fatalities instead of maybe a black eye or something. On the other hand, knowing that so many people are armed, I would certainly want to be armed as well to defend myself if the case arose.

I don't know the answer to it.

[El Kabong]

Chicago has GANG violence the guns they use aren't legal, they aren't law abiding citizens, the city has a ban on firearms.


bradlee180, there are more hunting rifles here in the states but we have guns for range practice, security, etc and it is our God given right to do so.

[greynotsoold]

In Florida, in most cases, when the 'Stand Your Ground' law comes into play, it is an individual defending themselves against another person of the same race. More often than not, it involves a black guy shooting another black guy, of a hispanic guy shooting another hispanic guy. And, generally, there are witnesses to corroborate the shooter's story so it is not an issue. A white guy shooting a black guy plays into an agenda- and you can trace this back to the frank Lyga/Kevin Gaines shooting in LA years ago, in which the white shooter and black victim were both cops. Google that one.
That said, I don't understand why this had to happen. I don't know why a guy sitting in front of a convenience store can't just put up with a bunch of young men playing loud music for a moment, then go on his way. Wasn't he ever young? It isn't like he's trapped in a room with them listening to some horrible noise, you know? Just let it go. But I wasn't there, so I don't know, and, at this point, every bit of info will be self-serving at best, if not a flat out lie.
I am a firm believer that every individual should be allowed to defend themselves, to take it to the dirt, to carry a gun or a sword. That right should never be infringed. I am equally convinced that there are people that arm themselves out of fear, inadequacy and insecurity and those people are dangerous. Because the weapon makes them brave and their insecurity makes them seek confrontation, while their fear makes them unreliable. I don't know how you screen for that because there is no reliable way to detect it until you see somebody in a stressful situation.

[bradlee180]

Fear, yes.

Y'know, plenty of these weekend hunter types are scared in the bush.
Without that rifle to cling to as their security, plenty of these outdoor-type guys wouldn't go in the bush at all out of fear. You gotta have that respect for the bush, but for $#!t's sake!

[Andre]

In Florida, in most cases, when the 'Stand Your Ground' law comes into play, it is an individual defending themselves against another person of the same race. More often than not, it involves a black guy shooting another black guy, of a hispanic guy shooting another hispanic guy. And, generally, there are witnesses to corroborate the shooter's story so it is not an issue. A white guy shooting a black guy plays into an agenda- and you can trace this back to the frank Lyga/Kevin Gaines shooting in LA years ago, in which the white shooter and black victim were both cops. Google that one.
That said, I don't understand why this had to happen. I don't know why a guy sitting in front of a convenience store can't just put up with a bunch of young men playing loud music for a moment, then go on his way. Wasn't he ever young? It isn't like he's trapped in a room with them listening to some horrible noise, you know? Just let it go. But I wasn't there, so I don't know, and, at this point, every bit of info will be self-serving at best, if not a flat out lie.
I am a firm believer that every individual should be allowed to defend themselves, to take it to the dirt, to carry a gun or a sword. That right should never be infringed. I am equally convinced that there are people that arm themselves out of fear, inadequacy and insecurity and those people are dangerous. Because the weapon makes them brave and their insecurity makes them seek confrontation, while their fear makes them unreliable. I don't know how you screen for that because there is no reliable way to detect it until you see somebody in a stressful situation.

So true. A weekend boot camp where they get put under pressure is about the only way one could tell. Some of these fruit cakes need to prove themselves worthy before being given a weapon.

[Andre]

Chicago has GANG violence the guns they use aren't legal, they aren't law abiding citizens, the city has a ban on firearms.


bradlee180, there are more hunting rifles here in the states but we have guns for range practice, security, etc and it is our God given right to do so.

Not sure about the God given bit God given/taken right .
Wicked means good these days too.

[p4pking]

Don't know anything about the case, but if this happened at a gas station, couldn't the guy just have tuned out some louid music for a minute rather than ask 4 much younger guys to turn it down. It's never really easier to take that route about anything in public, it's not as if these guys were parked outside his house or disturbing anyone else. Like Beanflicker said, this is the kind of incident that would result in a shouting match or an assault in most of the world, but maybe some people are more keen to create such a scenario when they have a weapon they want to show off.

More importantly though, the guy fires nine times at the car and goes and orders a pizza without reporting anything? I couldn't give a fuck if he really did think he was acting in self defence and got a life sentence just for that.