Russia vs Ukraine..

[walrus]

Miles, what is the current thoughts in South Korea about the US at the DMZ. Do the people want the US to leave or are the grateful we are there. I know some anti US protests kick up from time to time in South Korea but I haven't heard anything lately, I figure you could give me an honest report

[Gandalf]

Miles, what is the current thoughts in South Korea about the US at the DMZ. Do the people want the US to leave or are the grateful we are there. I know some anti US protests kick up from time to time in South Korea but I haven't heard anything lately, I figure you could give me an honest report

I drive out to one of the bases and sometimes check in for a beer. The local traders are fine with the troops as it is steady income for them. Most of the troops are okay too, I've met some interesting people, just a few nutters and you need to be careful late at night. Away from the bases and you will find opinion much more divided. I find it somewhat ironic though. They automatically blame America for every wrong, and yet seem to like the fact I am British. It's odd, because Britain has been in all of these wars too. They have double standards and I guess it is because people are not really following news as closely as they should be. It's like last week and Americans being unable to locate the Ukraine on a map. Ordinary people don't know much about things.

Personally, I would prefer Korea to protect itself now that it is a wealthy country. Every man does military service and they should create their own army. My reasons are because I think a nation should defend itself, and ideally I would like America to stop spending money on this and just focus on improving America for the Americans.

[Bo-Bo24]

Russia has basically been allowed to get away with supporting seperatists whilst mobilising their army on Ukraine's eastern border to prevent any anti terrorist action by the Ukranian army. They already took the Crimea on the basis of 'protecting Russian', imagine their reaction if the Ukranian army was to match back into Donetsk and retake the city.

[Beanz]

It's obviously exactly like the ridiculous notion that Iran's leadership would ever display any antisemitic tendencies. I shall make sure to run everything past yourself and Miles in future and ignore the stupid notion that any individual from Ukraine would ever want to be part of the European union. Everything in your little world seems to be attributable to America, to the point of obsession. Forgive me if I am wrong but you come across as a gullible naieve individual when all you do is repeat the same old stuff, again and again. You just present other people's opinion. What do YOU actually think?

[walrus]

It's obviously exactly like the ridiculous notion that Iran's leadership would ever display any antisemitic tendencies. I shall make sure to run everything past yourself and Miles in future and ignore the stupid notion that any individual from Ukraine would ever want to be part of the European union. Everything in your little world seems to be attributable to America, to the point of obsession. Forgive me if I am wrong but you come across as a gullible naieve individual when all you do is repeat the same old stuff, again and again. You just present other people's opinion. What do YOU actually think?

Good point, as I have said I am American, I have been to a few counties and I have noticed some hostility towards the US but in the end they said they liked all the Americans they have come across and there anger is reserved for the Government, not us regular citizens. When I first joined this forum I was surprised at the amount and regularity of anti American posts. Almost like a fixation. it's fine, I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion but I avoid getting fixated on external issues.

I do like the onion, one of the best satirical news organizations I have found. I was thinking of submitting a couple of things but have yet to do it.

PS I don't understand terrorism. I don't like the idea of attacks on soft targets. Go after military or government targets. To intentionally go after civilians with the desire to kill and maim as many as possible is absurd. I know a few people will retort saying I live in a terroristic country. I don't agree with a lot of what our government does and a or of us don't. Killing and intentionally going after the regular population is wrong no matter who does it. Al queda is an evil organization. They are not freedom fighters, they are a bunch of pussies. They deserve a few drone missiles up their assets. maggots.

[Beanz]

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

[Gandalf]

Putin did not instigate a coup, Putin isn't trying to put GMO in the Ukraine, Putin is not trying to support Nazi's etc etc. Putin gave the Crimean people a choice and the West has given NO choices as they don't give a hoot about the Ukraine. The West is trying to demonize Putin and you are trying to stir things up each time with 'evidence' that continuously turns out to be a hoax of some kind. That thing about the Jews was a hoax, the government snipers was a Western lie to topple the government. You keep buying into the lies and seem unable to distinguish between these fabrications. I seldom fall for fabrications and assume it to be because I hedge my reading. I am not special and many others do the same, Kirkland clearly does so. I read the propaganda and then I read alternative media such as Zero hedge, The Real News etc, to get a proper sense of perspective.

Syrian government chemical weapons, Iraq WMD etc etc. Always the same, and always proven false, false, false. It doesn't take anyone smart to see through the predictable narrative. And don't bring up millions of immigrants or anything like that, as I didn't say that, but it is true that millions of immigrant flooded the UK and will continue to flood.

The West is desperate and broke, they need these continual misadventures as they have literally nothing left except force and permanent ponzi schemes. The propaganda is so daft and extreme that it makes Iraq look almost sensible. The reasons for it are predictable, to enhance US special interests and whilst it creates attention, to divert attention from expanding tyranny at home and a possible new greater depression as looters, murderers, and liars got off completely free and history will repeat itself.

I am for the people of the Ukraine and wish them well and at the end of the day that is all that anyone wants. They should make up their own minds and lead their own way.

[Kirkland Laing]

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

[El Kabong]

Explainer: The Budapest Memorandum And Its Relevance To Crimea


....not much more to be said other than that.

[Kirkland Laing]

Explainer: The Budapest Memorandum And Its Relevance To Crimea


....not much more to be said other than that.

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

[El Kabong]

Well well, which of these quotes should I address

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

Perhaps I'll combine the two of them to encompass your take on the situation
"You're dumb....BUUUUUUT I don't have time to explain my views"


Mighty nice of you to take the time to insult me rather than explain in detail your points. I mean that is the BEST way to debate. Here I am using a document addressing the very issue we're debating, agreed upon and signed by USA, UK, Russia....and you call me stupid....AH touché what a brilliant point you've made.

[Kirkland Laing]

Well well, which of these quotes should I address

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

Perhaps I'll combine the two of them to encompass your take on the situation
"You're dumb....BUUUUUUT I don't have time to explain my views"


Mighty nice of you to take the time to insult me rather than explain in detail your points. I mean that is the BEST way to debate. Here I am using a document addressing the very issue we're debating, agreed upon and signed by USA, UK, Russia....and you call me stupid....AH touché what a brilliant point you've made.

So you want to invade Ukraine now?

Also, too. Who broke that agreement first?

[Beanz]

Eastern BLOC capitals ?

[El Kabong]

The link to which you responded....

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

You mean THAT link?....oh pardon me "that" link?

The one which said: "In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine."

The Helsinki Accords (Helsinki Final Act) which listed the following as principles of Guiding Relations between participating states:
I.Sovereign equality, respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty
II.Refraining from the threat or use of force
III.Inviolability of frontiers
IV.Territorial integrity of States
V.Peaceful settlement of disputes
VI.Non-intervention in internal affairs
VII.Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief
VIII.Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
IX.Co-operation among States
X.Fulfillment in good faith of obligations under international law

Of which Russia alone has violated at least: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII

That link?

[Kirkland Laing]

The link to which you responded....

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

You mean THAT link?....oh pardon me "that" link?

The one which said: "In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine."

The Helsinki Accords (Helsinki Final Act) which listed the following as principles of Guiding Relations between participating states:
I.Sovereign equality, respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty
II.Refraining from the threat or use of force
III.Inviolability of frontiers
IV.Territorial integrity of States
V.Peaceful settlement of disputes
VI.Non-intervention in internal affairs
VII.Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief
VIII.Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
IX.Co-operation among States
X.Fulfillment in good faith of obligations under international law

Of which Russia alone has violated at least: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII

That link?

Excellent. You've made my argument for me. Non-intervention in internal affairs, which America broke when it started funneling billions of dollars into Ukrainian politics in 1991.

Even more clearly from your link:

In the "Budapest Memorandum," Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States promised that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.