Russia vs Ukraine..

[Beanz]

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

[Gandalf]

Putin did not instigate a coup, Putin isn't trying to put GMO in the Ukraine, Putin is not trying to support Nazi's etc etc. Putin gave the Crimean people a choice and the West has given NO choices as they don't give a hoot about the Ukraine. The West is trying to demonize Putin and you are trying to stir things up each time with 'evidence' that continuously turns out to be a hoax of some kind. That thing about the Jews was a hoax, the government snipers was a Western lie to topple the government. You keep buying into the lies and seem unable to distinguish between these fabrications. I seldom fall for fabrications and assume it to be because I hedge my reading. I am not special and many others do the same, Kirkland clearly does so. I read the propaganda and then I read alternative media such as Zero hedge, The Real News etc, to get a proper sense of perspective.

Syrian government chemical weapons, Iraq WMD etc etc. Always the same, and always proven false, false, false. It doesn't take anyone smart to see through the predictable narrative. And don't bring up millions of immigrants or anything like that, as I didn't say that, but it is true that millions of immigrant flooded the UK and will continue to flood.

The West is desperate and broke, they need these continual misadventures as they have literally nothing left except force and permanent ponzi schemes. The propaganda is so daft and extreme that it makes Iraq look almost sensible. The reasons for it are predictable, to enhance US special interests and whilst it creates attention, to divert attention from expanding tyranny at home and a possible new greater depression as looters, murderers, and liars got off completely free and history will repeat itself.

I am for the people of the Ukraine and wish them well and at the end of the day that is all that anyone wants. They should make up their own minds and lead their own way.

[Kirkland Laing]

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

[El Kabong]

Explainer: The Budapest Memorandum And Its Relevance To Crimea


....not much more to be said other than that.

[Kirkland Laing]

Explainer: The Budapest Memorandum And Its Relevance To Crimea


....not much more to be said other than that.

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

[El Kabong]

Well well, which of these quotes should I address

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

Perhaps I'll combine the two of them to encompass your take on the situation
"You're dumb....BUUUUUUT I don't have time to explain my views"


Mighty nice of you to take the time to insult me rather than explain in detail your points. I mean that is the BEST way to debate. Here I am using a document addressing the very issue we're debating, agreed upon and signed by USA, UK, Russia....and you call me stupid....AH touché what a brilliant point you've made.

[Kirkland Laing]

Well well, which of these quotes should I address

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

Perhaps I'll combine the two of them to encompass your take on the situation
"You're dumb....BUUUUUUT I don't have time to explain my views"


Mighty nice of you to take the time to insult me rather than explain in detail your points. I mean that is the BEST way to debate. Here I am using a document addressing the very issue we're debating, agreed upon and signed by USA, UK, Russia....and you call me stupid....AH touché what a brilliant point you've made.

So you want to invade Ukraine now?

Also, too. Who broke that agreement first?

[Kirkland Laing]

Also also too. Let's declare a moratorium on BLOCK CAPS between now and the next time you unconditionally surrender, eh? It doesn't make you any SMARTER when you use them.

[El Kabong]

So you want to invade Ukraine now?

Also, too. Who broke that agreement first?

No

Russia


'Also' and 'too' mean the same thing, so you're repeating yourself, you're being redundant, you're saying the same thing twice

[Beanz]

Eastern BLOC capitals ?

[Gandalf]

CNN Headline: Russia trying to start WW3.

Are they having a laugh? This is domestic CNN so it's good to see them keeping up good old Iraq traditions by talking complete and utter bollocks. When it comes to Chevron and Monsanta wanting their open access to Ukraine's resources, they go remarkably silent.

If this was Russia trying to grab Cuba I could understand these kinds of headlines, but these fruitcakes are on Russia's border wondering why Russia will defend Russian interests? It's bizarro world over there on CNN.

Obama is losing the propaganda war as they keep on falsifying evidence and get debunked every time. Rational people can see that America is provoking all of this.

Escobar on RT: US fears opposing views are gaining strength - YouTube

[El Kabong]

The link to which you responded....

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

You mean THAT link?....oh pardon me "that" link?

The one which said: "In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine."

The Helsinki Accords (Helsinki Final Act) which listed the following as principles of Guiding Relations between participating states:
I.Sovereign equality, respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty
II.Refraining from the threat or use of force
III.Inviolability of frontiers
IV.Territorial integrity of States
V.Peaceful settlement of disputes
VI.Non-intervention in internal affairs
VII.Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief
VIII.Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
IX.Co-operation among States
X.Fulfillment in good faith of obligations under international law

Of which Russia alone has violated at least: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII

That link?

[Kirkland Laing]

The link to which you responded....

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

You mean THAT link?....oh pardon me "that" link?

The one which said: "In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine."

The Helsinki Accords (Helsinki Final Act) which listed the following as principles of Guiding Relations between participating states:
I.Sovereign equality, respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty
II.Refraining from the threat or use of force
III.Inviolability of frontiers
IV.Territorial integrity of States
V.Peaceful settlement of disputes
VI.Non-intervention in internal affairs
VII.Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief
VIII.Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
IX.Co-operation among States
X.Fulfillment in good faith of obligations under international law

Of which Russia alone has violated at least: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII

That link?

Excellent. You've made my argument for me. Non-intervention in internal affairs, which America broke when it started funneling billions of dollars into Ukrainian politics in 1991.

Even more clearly from your link:

In the "Budapest Memorandum," Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States promised that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

[El Kabong]

Excellent. You've made my argument for me. Non-intervention in internal affairs, which America broke when it started funneling billions of dollars into Ukrainian politics in 1991.

Even more clearly from your link:

In the "Budapest Memorandum," Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States promised that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

Your argument is proof of just how fucking stupid you are. You can dare accuse the United States of intervention in Ukraine when United States military equipment has never touched the ground in Ukraine (can the Russians say that Kirkland?) not 1 single United States Soldier, Marine, or Sailor has intervened in Ukraine (can the Russians say that Kirkland?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0wzNqtZp-Y


Argument over, I win, you lose, have fun in BLOCKVILLE shithead

[Beanz]

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

This is an interesting and honest post and I can agree with some of it but it is still oversimplifying the situation. Putin's version of the EU is nothing like the EU and the the entity that yourself, Miles and Noam Chomsky have invented called "the West" does not really exist. A hulking great homogeneous mass of individuals and Governments that all agree on one ideology that is an inverse version of one shared by an opposite group called "the East" could conceivably be described with such a reductionist nomenclature but actual reality and the people that live in it are not served by the use of such redundant metaphors. Those in Government and those who are governed, and those with power and those without have much more in common from both "the east" and "the west" than they have in opposition.

It is quite laughable that you can sit there and tell other people what they should and should not do in their own country whilst criticising people from other countries for doing the same thing. It is no good pulling out a measuring stick for Justice and then only measuring one side against it. Make no mistake their are no more honourable intentions from one side than the other in global politics, all sides have an agenda. If Egyptians,Tunisians, Ukrainians etc wish to overthrow their Government then I can not possibly judge such actions from this side of their society and everyday reality.