Russia vs Ukraine..

[Gandalf]

Also what on earth are you talking about with Blair? I have made lots of threads about Blair over the years and I call these people out for what they are. I was always against the wars, lots of Bush threads too. It doesn't take me any time to catch up as I was there from the off. I am consistent and I am completely comfortable with my position. If I was miscuing politically I would accept your point, but I think you are wide of the mark there. The only miscue was with Obama originally, but since Obama, I have completely deprogrammed my political education and I like where my political views are now. I feel more knowledgeable than ever before and it comes from a wide range of inputs, left, right, and centre.

You cannot be a maverick as there are other people who speak and write, and you share things in common with them too. You cannot be a maverick when it comes to politics and geopolitics. You have to look at the facts, weed out the gibberish, and surprisingly enough the names listed above, seem to think as I do. If I was relating to the views of the general propaganda establishment, then something would definitely be wrong. I wouldn't be telling the truth for a start and my views are consistent as the patterns are usually quite predictable. It's either an invasion, a coup, or else a provocation. Dozens of countries have been affected since WW2 and so the culprit is usually easily identified. This is a telling case. It's so predictable that you have to assume that they just don't care anymore and I refuse to accept that any intelligent person cannot see it for what it is. It's a massive provocation and the WW3 argument is like the Iraq 45 minutes claim.

These journalists show exactly why the British and American media is so lowly ranked these days. The BBC should be abolished.

[Kirkland Laing]

So you want to invade Ukraine now?

Also, too. Who broke that agreement first?

No

Russia


'Also' and 'too' mean the same thing, so you're repeating yourself, you're being redundant, you're saying the same thing twice

So Obama is doing the right thing then?

The US broke that agreement first.

Also, too, well done with the small letters.

[Kirkland Laing]

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

This is an interesting and honest post and I can agree with some of it but it is still oversimplifying the situation. Putin's version of the EU is nothing like the EU and the the entity that yourself, Miles and Noam Chomsky have invented called "the West" does not really exist. A hulking great homogeneous mass of individuals and Governments that all agree on one ideology that is an inverse version of one shared by an opposite group called "the East" could conceivably be described with such a reductionist nomenclature but actual reality and the people that live in it are not served by the use of such redundant metaphors. Those in Government and those who are governed, and those with power and those without have much more in common from both "the east" and "the west" than they have in opposition.

It is quite laughable that you can sit there and tell other people what they should and should not do in their own country whilst criticising people from other countries for doing the same thing. It is no good pulling out a measuring stick for Justice and then only measuring one side against it. Make no mistake their are no more honourable intentions from one side than the other in global politics, all sides have an agenda. If Egyptians,Tunisians, Ukrainians etc wish to overthrow their Government then I can not possibly judge such actions from this side of their society and everyday reality.

No, it's nothing like the EU. But calling it Putin's version of the EU is a pretty accurate way to sum it up in a few words, no?

The people running the EU and the US have been acting in concert to turn Ukraine pro-western. That's just not debatable, you have the US ambassador talking about it on tape and endless other evidence. Using "the west" to describe this US-EU collaboration is just a shorthand term, no need to read anything more into it than that.

I'm fine with peole overthrowing their own government when they're living under repression with no other recourse. Egypt comes into that category, but then the counter revolution that overthrew the democratically elected government and has led to the current Mubarak redux dictatorship does not.

Ukraine's economy is 1% the size of the United States economy yet over the last 20 years the US (admitted by various US officials) have spent five billion dollars trying to turn the country pro-west. That's the equivalent of spending $500 billion interfering in US politics over the past twenty years. None of the five US election cycles in that 20 year period have seen total spending even approach $10 billion apart from the last one. So that's like Russia spending ten times the total spending of both US polictical parties over twenty years to influence US politics.

But hey, not an accurate comparsion. America isn't interfering in Russia, just the country next door. So imagine Russia was doing this in Canada when they'd already turned south America countries as far as Mexico pro-Russian. That wouldn't invite a US reaction?

America signed an agreement not to interfere with the political integrity of Ukraine then immediately broke it and spent the next twent yyears funneling huge (for Ukraine) amounts of cash into the country to turn it pro-west. At some point a Russian reaction is inevitab;le and that's now what we've got.

[El Kabong]

So Obama is doing the right thing then?

The US broke that agreement first.

Also, too, well done with the small letters.

No. the UN & NATO (or shouldn't I capitalize those because it's racist to have block caps?) should have immediately intervened when Russia stuck it's nose in. The problems in the Ukraine are for Ukrainians to deal with, not for Russians to attempt and hold sway over a weaker nation. Ukraine will decide itself whether it is more European or more Russian. Equally the United States should stay out unless a peacekeeping force is needed from the UN or NATO. Such forces would not change the boundaries of Ukraine unlike the Russian intervention which has already seen a great deal of change in the boundaries of Ukraine which again is 100% at odds with the 1994 Budapest Memorandum which Russia signed in good faith.


How so? Did the US send troops to Ukraine? Did the US allow/persuade Crimea to secede?...oh I get it, you don't have a reason, you're just part of the typical "Blame America first" crowd.....very well then, carry on.

[El Kabong]

America signed an agreement not to interfere with the political integrity of Ukraine

Ummmm yeah, I believe you've misinterpreted that. The United States signed an agreement to not interfere with or change the territorial integrity of Ukraine....as in, the United States wasn't going to cut out little chunks of the Ukraine attempting to make them different countries....which Russia agreed to and well....here we are with a Ukraine and a Crimea which used to be part of Ukraine but not anymore thanks to.......anyone anyone? Thanks to, Russian intervention.

[Kirkland Laing]

America signed an agreement not to interfere with the political integrity of Ukraine

Ummmm yeah, I believe you've misinterpreted that. The United States signed an agreement to not interfere with or change the territorial integrity of Ukraine....as in, the United States wasn't going to cut out little chunks of the Ukraine attempting to make them different countries....which Russia agreed to and well....here we are with a Ukraine and a Crimea which used to be part of Ukraine but not anymore thanks to.......anyone anyone? Thanks to, Russian intervention.

Read your own link.

[El Kabong]

The link to which you responded....

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

You mean THAT link?....oh pardon me "that" link?

The one which said: "In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine."

The Helsinki Accords (Helsinki Final Act) which listed the following as principles of Guiding Relations between participating states:
I.Sovereign equality, respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty
II.Refraining from the threat or use of force
III.Inviolability of frontiers
IV.Territorial integrity of States
V.Peaceful settlement of disputes
VI.Non-intervention in internal affairs
VII.Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief
VIII.Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
IX.Co-operation among States
X.Fulfillment in good faith of obligations under international law

Of which Russia alone has violated at least: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII

That link?

[Kirkland Laing]

The link to which you responded....

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

You mean THAT link?....oh pardon me "that" link?

The one which said: "In return, Russia and the Western signatory countries essentially consecrated the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine as an independent state. They did so by applying the principles of territorial integrity and nonintervention in 1975 Helsinki Final Act -- a Cold War-era treaty signed by 35 states including the Soviet Union -- to an independent post-Soviet Ukraine."

The Helsinki Accords (Helsinki Final Act) which listed the following as principles of Guiding Relations between participating states:
I.Sovereign equality, respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty
II.Refraining from the threat or use of force
III.Inviolability of frontiers
IV.Territorial integrity of States
V.Peaceful settlement of disputes
VI.Non-intervention in internal affairs
VII.Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief
VIII.Equal rights and self-determination of peoples
IX.Co-operation among States
X.Fulfillment in good faith of obligations under international law

Of which Russia alone has violated at least: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII

That link?

Excellent. You've made my argument for me. Non-intervention in internal affairs, which America broke when it started funneling billions of dollars into Ukrainian politics in 1991.

Even more clearly from your link:

In the "Budapest Memorandum," Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States promised that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

[El Kabong]

Excellent. You've made my argument for me. Non-intervention in internal affairs, which America broke when it started funneling billions of dollars into Ukrainian politics in 1991.

Even more clearly from your link:

In the "Budapest Memorandum," Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States promised that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

Your argument is proof of just how fucking stupid you are. You can dare accuse the United States of intervention in Ukraine when United States military equipment has never touched the ground in Ukraine (can the Russians say that Kirkland?) not 1 single United States Soldier, Marine, or Sailor has intervened in Ukraine (can the Russians say that Kirkland?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0wzNqtZp-Y


Argument over, I win, you lose, have fun in BLOCKVILLE shithead

[Kirkland Laing]

Excellent. You've made my argument for me. Non-intervention in internal affairs, which America broke when it started funneling billions of dollars into Ukrainian politics in 1991.

Even more clearly from your link:

In the "Budapest Memorandum," Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States promised that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

Your argument is proof of just how fucking stupid you are. You can dare accuse the United States of intervention in Ukraine when United States military equipment has never touched the ground in Ukraine (can the Russians say that Kirkland?) not 1 single United States Soldier, Marine, or Sailor has intervened in Ukraine (can the Russians say that Kirkland?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0wzNqtZp-Y


Argument over, I win, you lose, have fun in BLOCKVILLE shithead

The US signed an agreement not to threaten the political independence of Ukraine (exact words from your own link) then immediately broke it by spending the next couple of decades funneling gigantic sums of money into Ukrainian politics (as various US officials have publicly admitted). What part of this don't you understand?

[El Kabong]

Awww princess thinks I want to read her wittle posts.....you're still blocked.....awwww poor baby

[Kirkland Laing]

Awww princess thinks I want to read her wittle posts.....you're still blocked.....awwww poor baby

You've surrendered again already? Fuck me. I've genuinely lost count of how many times you've unconditionally surrendered now but this has got to be close to my double hat trick.

[El Kabong]

I believe I said....


YOU'VE BEEN BLOCKED



....but then again you always did have issues with reality

[El Kabong]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/wo...-day.html?_r=0


Yup....nothing to see here

[Kirkland Laing]

I believe I said....


YOU'VE BEEN BLOCKED



....but then again you always did have issues with reality

You're still reading my posts even though you've surrendered yet again. Shameful.