are we forgetting what the point of boxing is?

[ross]

You may not realise the difference between amateur and professional boxing.

Amateur is a sport.

Professional is a business.

Professional boxing was created to make money out of fighters. Promoters need personalities and excitment that fans want to see to help sell fights. If your fighter is bland and offers no excitiment you are going to struggle to sell tickets.

Have you paid to travel and watch Andre Ward fight? Have you paid to go and watch any other fighters?

so professional sports arent actually sports?

Well if you really scrutinised proffesional boxing and looked at the scoring and how a crowd cheering or an aggressive fighter, or even a promoter offering hospitality can influence the scoring. Basically, the scores you see are however the judges want to iterperet what they are seeing. Only a winner or a loser of each round.

Now compare that to the sport of amateur boxings scoring system. Counting how many scoring punches land with force on the target area, just like fencing, you jave something to base a score on that cant be disputed.

Just like football has goals, you have something concrete to base a score off. How would football fans feel if the scoring was changed from how many goals to what ever 3 judges thought of the way each team played?

Almost like the difference between pro and amateur wrestling. Obviously thats exagerating but its the difference between an actual sport and a business.

You can be good and promote yourself at the same time, look at Ali, Tyson, Mayorga etc. All the very best and u disputed at one point and also, everyone wanted to watch them.

Football results are affected (sometimes decided) by referees interpretation of different situations. All pro sport is a business. Its a business because its about making money but it certainly it still a sport. The start of this thread is correct, boxing fans should appreciate the best in the sport, even if they do not enjoy watching them.

Ok and they are manipulated by the players pretending to be fouled but the outcome of a football match is based on how many goals are scored. NOT by 3 judges telling us what they think of the players performance.

Amateur boxing like I said, is a sport that is also based on so ething you can count, just like football with goals.

[generalbulldog]

Professional boxing as someone stated is a business. Heck, all professional sports are a business. If you can't draw in the spectators either at the event or on tv, it means the guy is not a draw, then that means less money.

Again, I already addressed this issue in the other thread when some poster said it's the idiots that like action fighters, brawlers, and guys that come to fight as "the sign of the times." No, it's not. An exciting fighter has always drawn the masses since the conception of this sport, whether it's the hardcore boxing fan or casual sports fan. Guys like Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Ali, Tyson carried the sport at one time because they were exciting, and at one time were the most famous athletes in the entire sports world. Even the exciting guys below the HW division draws the masses such as Duran, Hagler, and recently Pacquiao. Professional boxing thrives when you have these guys.

Professional boxing's lifeline throughout it's history are the exciting fighters I have mentioned, it's not the Rigondeauxs.

[erics44]

It's the modern mainstream money-making culture.

People have always craved for intense entertainment (and pro boxing is just that, of course) but the thing is that audiences have become too numerous and you can't expect so many people to be very demanding on subtlety.

The same thing for music and films; 30 years ago it was the innovative and/or quality stuff that hit the mainstream; now the mainstream is packed with a mish-mash of rubbish year after year. No room for "weird" music like The Doors or David Bowie on Top of the Pops.

It all benefits the more mediocre artists whilst the good ones get the scraps.

ha


this thread need to be renamed


"talk utter bollox and mention the good old days"

Not bollocks at all. Sadly it's just the way it is with mainstream; the wider the public, the more it can or has to be dumbed down to make cash.

And I don't give a sod about the good old days.

boxing (and sport in general) is played at a much higher level nowadays than ever before


the "sluggers" of today would KO the finest slickest boxers of yesteryear with in a few rounds


boxing is at a peak with skill, fitness, athleticism etc


the public are better educated, the world demands better athletes and that's what it has


so unfortunately matey, I completely disagree with what you are saying, I don't really think you have thought it through

[beenKOed]

All I can go by is what I like, I can appreciate a Rigondeaux and a Ward, but I don't feel the excitement building for one of their fights the way it does when Cotto, Maidana, and Manny fight, to name a few.
My personal hell would be watching Rigondeaux fight himself forever. Call me ignorant, and a barbarian but I know what I like.

[ross]

All I can go by is what I like, I can appreciate a Rigondeaux and a Ward, but I don't feel the excitement building for one of their fights the way it does when Cotto, Maidana, and Manny fight, to name a few.
My personal hell would be watching Rigondeaux fight himself forever. Call me ignorant, and a barbarian but I know what I like.

Or a Hopkins v Ward match.

[erics44]

All I can go by is what I like, I can appreciate a Rigondeaux and a Ward, but I don't feel the excitement building for one of their fights the way it does when Cotto, Maidana, and Manny fight, to name a few.
My personal hell would be watching Rigondeaux fight himself forever. Call me ignorant, and a barbarian but I know what I like.

Or a Hopkins v Ward match.

the thing is this might happen


ha, it would be interesting like, id watch it at least for a round or two

[erics44]

All I can go by is what I like, I can appreciate a Rigondeaux and a Ward, but I don't feel the excitement building for one of their fights the way it does when Cotto, Maidana, and Manny fight, to name a few.
My personal hell would be watching Rigondeaux fight himself forever. Call me ignorant, and a barbarian but I know what I like.

I agree pal, I understand boxing and I understand the skill behind it and why certain fighters are so good, I get it


but id rather watch blood and guts and sweat and tears, id rather watch 2 fighters stood in front of each other trying to land punches and then trying to land some more


yeah there has to be skill involved but as long as the type of skill doesn't compromise the fight in terms of entertainment

[IamInuit]

Boxing or rather pugilism does not have some moral obligation to devolve at the same rate as its fan base along with the short attention span that caused that devolution. The fight has taken the back seat to the show. Boxing matches or the actual fights are being judged by how many ppv numbers they do.
Boxing is not even about boxing.

That is my gripe about today after faithfully following the sport for close to 5 decades. Not sure what else I personally can draw on other then my own witness. If not observation, experience and repeatability then what? I wasn't born cynical.

[goti71]

It's the modern mainstream money-making culture.

People have always craved for intense entertainment (and pro boxing is just that, of course) but the thing is that audiences have become too numerous and you can't expect so many people to be very demanding on subtlety.

The same thing for music and films; 30 years ago it was the innovative and/or quality stuff that hit the mainstream; now the mainstream is packed with a mish-mash of rubbish year after year. No room for "weird" music like The Doors or David Bowie on Top of the Pops.

It all benefits the more mediocre artists whilst the good ones get the scraps.

ha


this thread need to be renamed


"talk utter bollox and mention the good old days"

Not bollocks at all. Sadly it's just the way it is with mainstream; the wider the public, the more it can or has to be dumbed down to make cash.

And I don't give a sod about the good old days.

boxing (and sport in general) is played at a much higher level nowadays than ever before


the "sluggers" of today would KO the finest slickest boxers of yesteryear with in a few rounds


boxing is at a peak with skill, fitness, athleticism etc


the public are better educated, the world demands better athletes and that's what it has


so unfortunately matey, I completely disagree with what you are saying, I don't really think you have thought it through

A bit off-topic that (I've just re-read my post and I don't know where I said boxing was better in the good old days) but "Sluggers" of today would KO the slickest of yesteryear? I don't know. I didn't mention anything to imply that.


As for the topic, people are more educated, yes, but then why do a whole load of them say slick boxing is "running"? Why do they boo at the fights of Rigondeaux, Lara, Ward? They actually make up a big percentage of the PPV and ticket buyers, as you know.

I drew a parallel with the music and film industry not because I see the past with rose-tinted glasses but to make a point that people seem to accept lower standards in entertainment in general. And boxing gets a touch of this tendency too.*

*Edit: that was my point.

[Beanflicker]

That's why boxing is going to be in BIG trouble in the next few years when guys like Floyd and Manny are retired.

Boxing has become a spectacle, a cash grab. And they're not going to out-spectacle the UFC, at least not without Manny and Floyd.

[generalbulldog]

Boxing fans today are the same as the boxing fans of yesteryear. Nothing has changed. Many boxing fans have always wanted action fights and action fighters, this crosses all eras of the sport. Rigondeaux would still stink out the joint during the golden age of boxing, which would be the 20s to 50s and would not attract fans. The boxing fans have never changed. Here's a documented example:

Boxing's biggest current attraction is a roughneck middleweight from Manhattan's tough Mulberry Street. Rocco ("Rocky") Graziano packed them in at Madison Square Garden last week for what fans thought would be his sixth straight knockout, a new Garden record. He fooled himself and the fans by winning on points from ex-Sailor Sonny Home.
As a boxer, Rocky Graziano is a joke, but he has the top two requisites to ring fame & fortune — a paralyzing punch, an iron jaw. His 155 lbs. ace mounted on a sturdy pair of legs that would never per form fancy ring steps. He mauls in...

Sport: The Making of Rocky - TIME

This Time Magazine article was dated January 1946, during the Golden Age of boxing. Rocky Graziano, who was a banger and slugger sold out Madison Square Garden numerous times because he was an all out action fighter that brought out people. He had little boxing ability but possessed the punching power, chin, and most important of all the all out action to be a marquee attraction. Rocky Graziano was the Provodnikov of his day. Want another example? The great Jack Dempsey whom even boxing writers back then described as an all out brawler sold out stadiums and became the most famous athlete in the world, he even surpassed Babe Ruth in terms of popularity during the roaring 20s. How about another example? The very 1st heavyweight champion, John L. Sullivan aka the Boston Strong Boy, was described as a brawler and mauler who brought out the masses because he was exciting, while Gentleman Jim Corbett who outboxed and ko John L. Sullivan was described as boring and not as exciting as Sullivan. Sounds familiar?

The boxing fans have never changed, we have always wanted the action fighter and action fights. A Rigondeaux would not be fighting in Madison Square Garden and selling it out even during the Golden Age of boxing, that arena was only reserved for the marquee attractions.

[Beanflicker]

A Rigondeaux would not be fighting in Madison Square Garden and selling it out even during the Golden Age of boxing, that arena was only reserved for the marquee attractions.

What about Willie Pep? A feather-fisted runner who's motto was "he who hits and runs away lives to fight another day"? He was a fixture at MSG.

[Beanflicker]

Listen, nobody is going to argue that entertaining brawlers don't have more mass appeal than counter fighters. Tons of guys have made great living for themselves in boxing because, despite having little/mediocre talent, they had an entertaining style and/or an endearing/interesting personality. And on the flip side, there are a ton of guys who had elite talent but a boring style and/or personality, and went grossly underpaid and under appreciated during their careers. People like to see blood, violence, and knockouts. That's something we all like, from the casual who knows nothing about boxing to the hardcore boxing aficionado, we all appreciate violent wars and brutal knockouts.

But if you consider yourself a true boxing fan, you should have an appreciation for the art and science of boxing as well. Guys like Floyd, Rigo, Ward, ect are elite level fighters - guys who exemplify true "sweet science" - and if hardcore boxing fans don't appreciate the talent that these guys have, then boxing is FUCKED. The UFC is more exciting and violent than boxing. If the art of the sweet science doesn't even interest the hardcore boxing fans, than boxing is clearly a sinking ship.

I think if you're one of those guys who complains about how boring Floyd/Rigo/Ward/ect are and think that guys like Ward should start being loud and playing a "character" like Floyd does to promote himself, and think they should abandon their art and fight stupidly for your entertainment, you should be ashamed of yourself and you're little more than a casual fan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy the bloody wars, but give respect to the guys who have dedicated their lives to the art of the sport too.

[Silkeyjoe]

You may not realise the difference between amateur and professional boxing.

Amateur is a sport.

Professional is a business.

Professional boxing was created to make money out of fighters. Promoters need personalities and excitment that fans want to see to help sell fights. If your fighter is bland and offers no excitiment you are going to struggle to sell tickets.

Have you paid to travel and watch Andre Ward fight? Have you paid to go and watch any other fighters?

so professional sports arent actually sports?

Well if you really scrutinised proffesional boxing and looked at the scoring and how a crowd cheering or an aggressive fighter, or even a promoter offering hospitality can influence the scoring. Basically, the scores you see are however the judges want to iterperet what they are seeing. Only a winner or a loser of each round.

Now compare that to the sport of amateur boxings scoring system. Counting how many scoring punches land with force on the target area, just like fencing, you jave something to base a score on that cant be disputed.

Just like football has goals, you have something concrete to base a score off. How would football fans feel if the scoring was changed from how many goals to what ever 3 judges thought of the way each team played?

Almost like the difference between pro and amateur wrestling. Obviously thats exagerating but its the difference between an actual sport and a business.

You can be good and promote yourself at the same time, look at Ali, Tyson, Mayorga etc. All the very best and u disputed at one point and also, everyone wanted to watch them.

Football results are affected (sometimes decided) by referees interpretation of different situations. All pro sport is a business. Its a business because its about making money but it certainly it still a sport. The start of this thread is correct, boxing fans should appreciate the best in the sport, even if they do not enjoy watching them.

Ok and they are manipulated by the players pretending to be fouled but the outcome of a football match is based on how many goals are scored. NOT by 3 judges telling us what they think of the players performance.

Amateur boxing like I said, is a sport that is also based on so ething you can count, just like football with goals.

Amateur boxing is now scored on the 10 point system by judges. Even before that it was scored by judges judging punches landed and scoring them and was just as easy to fix as pro boxing. I really do not get your point.

[generalbulldog]

A Rigondeaux would not be fighting in Madison Square Garden and selling it out even during the Golden Age of boxing, that arena was only reserved for the marquee attractions.

What about Willie Pep? A feather-fisted runner who's motto was "he who hits and runs away lives to fight another day"? He was a fixture at MSG.

Pep was not a feather fisted puncher in his prime. He actually had decent power that can ko you if given the opportunity and he dazzled in the ring. I can't say the same when I watch a Rigondeaux fight. Yes he has great technical skills and that's about it.

That's beside the point, my point being is that pro boxing since it's birth has been carried by action fighters, sluggers, brawlers, ko artists or guys like ALi that dazzled in the ring. Guys that had it and brought it into the ring. Some posters here think that in some bygone era that Rigondeaux will be more appreciated while action fighters, brawlers, ko artists, won't be because the fans were more "evolved" and "knowledgeable" is patently false. Rigondeaux if placed in the golden era won't be selling out stadiums like Dempsey, Marciano, Louis, Robinson, Lamotta, etc. This sport has and will always be carried by the likes of the action guys. Who says? Boxing history says. So it's not a devolvement of the sport and its fan base if fans prefer a Pacquiao, Duran, Hagler, 80s Tyson, Pryor, Holyfield, Chavez to a Rigondeaux. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise and it's also ridiculous to suggest fans that don't like the style of Rigondeaux isn't a "true" or "real" boxing fan.