Floyd, Manny, Hop, Roy legacy

[Rantcatrat]

I'll try to explain. Allowing Ricky to weigh in at 147 didn't necessarily hurt Ricky's performance, as you mentioned he didn't have to struggle as much to make weight. However, Ricky's style depended in part on his ability to out-muscle his competition. He couldn't do that as effectively at 147, as he could at 140. He was only 5'6.

Before his fight against Floyd, he fought Collazo at 147, who I thought he struggled a lot with. In fact, Collazo hurt him in the last few rounds and Ricky was forced to hold as a result. If we're honest, what Did Ricky Hatton really do at 147? What was his best win at that weight class? Collazo? Maybe it's just me, which is fine, but Hatton looked like a tough Staffordshire Terrier at 140, but at 147, he looked of average, if not small size.

For example, I think Sergio Martinez's win over Kelly Pavlik at 160 is better than Hopkins' win over him at 170 because Pavlik just wasn't as effective above 160.

Right, and I totally understand how Ricky was more effective fighting 140lbers than 147lbers. That's boxing, some guys move up in weight and can no longer do what made them great at a lower weight. I get that, fair enough.

What I don't get is how it effects his performance specifically against Floyd Mayweather. You're telling me that it's not the weight itself that effects the performance, it's the actual fighting of guys a weight class higher that is the problem. Ok, but what's that got to do with Floyd, who was never a true WW even to this day?

Floyd weighs in at 147, on fight day he weights in 147-150. He doesn't cut weight. If they fought at 140, what happens? Floyd sweats out 7lbs, puts it back on and comes into the ring at 147-150 (which incidentally would be much lower than what Ricky comes into the ring at.) Either way, Ricky fights at 147-150lb Floyd Mayweather.

To this day, it's the dumbest excuse I've ever heard in any fight sport.

I gotcha. You're saying a 140 version of Hatton wouldn't have beat Floyd. Fair enough. I tend to agree with you. In a p4p sense, weight being equal, I think he beats Hatton on most days. Frankly, scoreboard, he has a win over Hatton, even if it wasn't at Hatton's best weight.

On the other hand, in my opinion, Floyd's a natural welterweight. Sure, he fights at 150 on fight night, but that doesn't mean that losing 7 pounds wouldn't be difficult for him and might not zap some strength and performance out of him. Keep in mind too that Floyd agreed to a catch weight of 145 for Marquez and then came in at 147 even though it cost him money. I have to think that was because it was more comfortable to make 147 than it was 145. Clearly, it wasn't the honorable thing to do. If it was so easy to make weight, and Floyd isn't shy about using his A-side status to his advantage, why not force big strong welterweights to fight at 140 or below 147? He forced Canelo to fight at 152. In other words, if he wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't because he's a welterweight.

[Beanflicker]

I gotcha. You're saying a 140 version of Hatton wouldn't have beat Floyd. Fair enough. I tend to agree with you. In a p4p sense, weight being equal, I think he beats Hatton on most days. Frankly, scoreboard, he has a win over Hatton, even if it wasn't at Hatton's best weight.

On the other hand, in my opinion, Floyd's a natural welterweight. Sure, he fights at 150 on fight night, but that doesn't mean that losing 7 pounds wouldn't be difficult for him and might not zap some strength and performance out of him. Keep in mind too that Floyd agreed to a catch weight of 145 for Marquez and then came in at 147 even though it cost him money. I have to think that was because it was more comfortable to make 147 than it was 145. Clearly, it wasn't the honorable thing to do. If it was so easy to make weight, and Floyd isn't shy about using his A-side status to his advantage, why not force big strong welterweights to fight at 140 or below 147? He forced Canelo to fight at 152. In other words, if he wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't because he's a welterweight.

He doesn't because he doesn't cut weight. It doesn't mean he's a natural WW in the modern sense. I guarantee you just about everybody Ricky Hatton fought at 140 came into the ring heavier than Floyd did for their fight at WW.

You guys keep skirting the question and going back to "well Ricky's best weight was 140". For you and Master to have the opinion you guys do you have to either think that A) Ricky would have performed better if forced to cut down to 140lbs (which I think is ridiculous: having to drain yourself sitting in a sauna and starving yourself before the weigh ins has never improved anybody's performance in the history of sports) or b) that Mayweather would have been drained or somehow diminished by having to cut down to 140 (which I doubt because 10lbs is a relatively small amount to have to cut, but if Floyd isn't used to cutting maybe it would have hurt him, it's a possibility, who knows).

If your position is A, you need to update your knowledge of weight cutting, maybe even try sweating out 15-20lbs yourself. If your position is B, why would you want Floyd to be diminished? Isn't the point of the undefeated clash to have both guys at their best? All weighing in at 147 did was cause Floyd not to have to cut weight and Ricky to have to cut less than usual.

It's funny that people make such a big deal about Ricky at WW, too. He had one WW fight before Floyd, against the notoriously crafty and awkward Collazo. Isn't it more likely that Ricky's trouble at WW came because he was fighting a very awkward and tricky fighter, moreso than actually physically weighing in at 147?

[Rantcatrat]

I gotcha. You're saying a 140 version of Hatton wouldn't have beat Floyd. Fair enough. I tend to agree with you. In a p4p sense, weight being equal, I think he beats Hatton on most days. Frankly, scoreboard, he has a win over Hatton, even if it wasn't at Hatton's best weight.

On the other hand, in my opinion, Floyd's a natural welterweight. Sure, he fights at 150 on fight night, but that doesn't mean that losing 7 pounds wouldn't be difficult for him and might not zap some strength and performance out of him. Keep in mind too that Floyd agreed to a catch weight of 145 for Marquez and then came in at 147 even though it cost him money. I have to think that was because it was more comfortable to make 147 than it was 145. Clearly, it wasn't the honorable thing to do. If it was so easy to make weight, and Floyd isn't shy about using his A-side status to his advantage, why not force big strong welterweights to fight at 140 or below 147? He forced Canelo to fight at 152. In other words, if he wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't because he's a welterweight.

He doesn't because he doesn't cut weight. It doesn't mean he's a natural WW in the modern sense. I guarantee you just about everybody Ricky Hatton fought at 140 came into the ring heavier than Floyd did for their fight at WW.

You guys keep skirting the question and going back to "well Ricky's best weight was 140". For you and Master to have the opinion you guys do you have to either think that A) Ricky would have performed better if forced to cut down to 140lbs (which I think is ridiculous: having to drain yourself sitting in a sauna and starving yourself before the weigh ins has never improved anybody's performance in the history of sports) or b) that Mayweather would have been drained or somehow diminished by having to cut down to 140 (which I doubt because 10lbs is a relatively small amount to have to cut, but if Floyd isn't used to cutting maybe it would have hurt him, it's a possibility, who knows).

If your position is A, you need to update your knowledge of weight cutting, maybe even try sweating out 15-20lbs yourself. If your position is B, why would you want Floyd to be diminished? Isn't the point of the undefeated clash to have both guys at their best? All weighing in at 147 did was cause Floyd not to have to cut weight and Ricky to have to cut less than usual.

It's funny that people make such a big deal about Ricky at WW, too. He had one WW fight before Floyd, against the notoriously crafty and awkward Collazo. Isn't it more likely that Ricky's trouble at WW came because he was fighting a very awkward and tricky fighter, moreso than actually physically weighing in at 147?

I think you might have missed my second post. I highlighted it above. Floyd would have beat Ricky Hatton anyway, 140 or not. I also think Ricky Hatton was better at 140. It might have been a more even fight because Floyd would have had to lose another 7 pounds, which might have been difficult for him. Floyd would have had to incorporate losing the 7 pounds into his training schedule and Hatton doing something he was was used to doing. So, we could have seen a closer match-up.

I still think Floyd is for sure a true welterweight. If Floyd wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't fight at 140 because he performs better at 147. 7 pounds is a ton of weight to lose in boxing. For a fighter who weighs 150 pounds losing ten pounds is losing 7% of your total body weight. When was the last time Floyd fought below 147? Why did Floyd not fight at 145 when he fought Marquez and was contracted to do so? You didn't answer it so I'll hazard a guess - because it was easier not to. If it was easier not to lose 2 pounds for Marquez, then it was much easier not to lose 7 to face Hatton at his prime weight.

In my opinion, this is a dumb argument because I think Floyd would still have won. He was a more well-rounded fighter.

[Master]

Floyd may well have won at 140lb but it would have been much closer. Add to the fact that if it was under the conditions Kostya had to deal with in terms of the hostile conditions and Dave Paris then we may have got a Ricky victory.

[Hulk]

Floyd may well have won at 140lb but it would have been much closer. Add to the fact that if it was under the conditions Kostya had to deal with in terms of the hostile conditions and Dave Paris then we may have got a Ricky victory.

Why not jus give Ricky a steel chair while we're at it? lol

[Beanflicker]

I think you might have missed my second post. I highlighted it above. Floyd would have beat Ricky Hatton anyway, 140 or not. I also think Ricky Hatton was better at 140. It might have been a more even fight because Floyd would have had to lose another 7 pounds, which might have been difficult for him. Floyd would have had to incorporate losing the 7 pounds into his training schedule and Hatton doing something he was was used to doing. So, we could have seen a closer match-up.

I still think Floyd is for sure a true welterweight. If Floyd wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't fight at 140 because he performs better at 147. 7 pounds is a ton of weight to lose in boxing. For a fighter who weighs 150 pounds losing ten pounds is losing 7% of your total body weight. When was the last time Floyd fought below 147? Why did Floyd not fight at 145 when he fought Marquez and was contracted to do so? You didn't answer it so I'll hazard a guess - because it was easier not to. If it was easier not to lose 2 pounds for Marquez, then it was much easier not to lose 7 to face Hatton at his prime weight.

In my opinion, this is a dumb argument because I think Floyd would still have won. He was a more well-rounded fighter.

I'm pretty sure I answered the question: Floyd doesn't like cutting weight. It's not up to me, you or Floyd to decide what a natural WW is. Go and look at the data of what WW's weigh in on the day of the fight and you find me another WW who comes in under 150lb on fight day.

Pick any weight class you want, guys will generally come in 10, 15, even 20+ lbs what they weighed in at. Maidana weighed in at 147 the first PBF fight and came in at damn near 170. Weight cutting is a big part of fight sports. If Floyd was cutting weight like everyone else, he'd be fighting at 140. He doesn't cut weight so he fights at 147. If most other 147lbers didn't cut weight, they'd be fighting at 160 or 168. Floyd is a tiny, tiny WW compared to his peers. I'm not giving you my opinion, I"m just stating facts.

I don't mind people saying they think Ricky would have won 3 years earlier, or if they had a ref that let him do more clinch work, whatever. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

I just wanted someone to give me a satisfactory answer as to why 147 was a significant advantage for Floyd or a significant disadvantage for Hatton. It's been 7 years and I still never got a good answer, just pseudo-science and weight class voodoo.

The only thing I was ever told that kinda made sense was that if the fight was at 147, Ricky knew he wouldn't have to bust his ass so hard to make the limit and wouldn't train as hard. If that's the case, like I said before, why is it Floyd's problem if Hatton couldn't be bothered to train hard for the biggest fight of his life?

[p4pking]

Did Hatton or his camp even press for the fight to be at 140? I agree it would have been a better fight there, but only if it had happened a couple of years earlier. Hatton didn't look himself at all against Juan Lazcano going back down after the Floyd fight.. Could have been mostly shaking off the mental aspect of that loss, or a bad training camp as a result of that, or perhaps he actually had a lot of trouble making 140 himself at that point? We don't know, but the guy had been fighting at 140 I believe forever and didn't exactly take it easy on himself out of the ring, there's no reason to think he was that much more effective there over the last few years of his career. I think he was just generally a bit shopworn by then at either weight. He was awesome against guys like Vince Phillips and Ben Tackie, even in the Tszyu fight he wasn't as good as that imo.

[Master]

Did Hatton or his camp even press for the fight to be at 140? I agree it would have been a better fight there, but only if it had happened a couple of years earlier. Hatton didn't look himself at all against Juan Lazcano going back down after the Floyd fight.. Could have been mostly shaking off the mental aspect of that loss, or a bad training camp as a result of that, or perhaps he actually had a lot of trouble making 140 himself at that point? We don't know, but the guy had been fighting at 140 I believe forever and didn't exactly take it easy on himself out of the ring, there's no reason to think he was that much more effective there over the last few years of his career. I think he was just generally a bit shopworn by then at either weight. He was awesome against guys like Vince Phillips and Ben Tackie, even in the Tszyu fight he wasn't as good as that imo.

No the Kostya fight was his pinacle performance.

[Rantcatrat]

I think you might have missed my second post. I highlighted it above. Floyd would have beat Ricky Hatton anyway, 140 or not. I also think Ricky Hatton was better at 140. It might have been a more even fight because Floyd would have had to lose another 7 pounds, which might have been difficult for him. Floyd would have had to incorporate losing the 7 pounds into his training schedule and Hatton doing something he was was used to doing. So, we could have seen a closer match-up.

I still think Floyd is for sure a true welterweight. If Floyd wanted to fight at 140, he would fight at 140. He doesn't fight at 140 because he performs better at 147. 7 pounds is a ton of weight to lose in boxing. For a fighter who weighs 150 pounds losing ten pounds is losing 7% of your total body weight. When was the last time Floyd fought below 147? Why did Floyd not fight at 145 when he fought Marquez and was contracted to do so? You didn't answer it so I'll hazard a guess - because it was easier not to. If it was easier not to lose 2 pounds for Marquez, then it was much easier not to lose 7 to face Hatton at his prime weight.

In my opinion, this is a dumb argument because I think Floyd would still have won. He was a more well-rounded fighter.

I'm pretty sure I answered the question: Floyd doesn't like cutting weight.

If Floyd was cutting weight like everyone else, he'd be fighting at 140. He doesn't cut weight so he fights at 147.

He isn't cutting weight below 147 because it is hard for him to do it. It's not a "like" or "dislike" issue. And, if he doesn't like to cut weight it's because it is difficult for him to do.

With that said, here's what we agree on:

• It is difficult for Floyd to fight below 147. Evidence: He didn't do it against Marquez even though he was contractually required to.
  
• Hatton had more success at 140 than 147. Evidence: he didn't have a truly good win at 147. He had many at 140.

Therefore if they had faced each other at 140:

• Floyd would be fighting at a weight where he is less comfortable.
  
• Hatton would be fighting at weight he proved to perform best.

Accordingly, the fight very well might have been closer.