Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

[BCBUD]

Why would you doubt it?

That's my job.

The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.

I am always looking for a proof.

I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.

Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.

If I understand nvsemin correctly than I completely agree with him.The reason being is that it's pretty hard to teach somebody a new style or even a style that they're not comfortable with!fact if somebody stands in a skate board position it's pretty hard to have them adapt to a peekaboo position or any other position for that matter.it appears that we are all born with the natural defense system for example you can train someone to fight off the front or the back foot but in the end they're going to revert to what they feel comfortable doing.

[jms]

Why would you doubt it?

That's my job.

The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.

I am always looking for a proof.

I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.

Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.

If I understand nvsemin correctly than I completely agree with him.The reason being is that it's pretty hard to teach somebody a new style or even a style that they're not comfortable with!fact if somebody stands in a skate board position it's pretty hard to have them adapt to a peekaboo position or any other position for that matter.it appears that we are all born with the natural defense system for example you can train someone to fight off the front or the back foot but in the end they're going to revert to what they feel comfortable doing.

Ok, again, systems and styles are very different things. A system allows multiple styles to exist in it. Not everyone trained in peekaboo fights the same, not everyone trained under the mayweathers fights the same. They have different styles but come from the same system.

Also good fights don't fight off the front foot OR the back foot, they fight off both as needed.

[Scrap]

One certainty is everyone's system is based on counter punching, movement.

[greynotsoold]

One certainty is everyone's system is based on counter punching, movement.

That is exactly it. You do something- a feint, how you move closer, whatever- and because you do it a lot, you have a pretty good idea of what the other guy is going to do, and so then you know what you are going to do, and so on. Good fighters seem to know what the other guy is going to do next because he is making them do it.

[BCBUD]

It appears that all the hype of the Mayweather shoulder roll is done.Andre Ward is the new technique of defense which is nothing more than the lock to block a right punch just simply put your left arm out in a right arc. Andre Ward In Ring Demonstration - YouTube 2:26

[WayneFlint]

Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol

I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.

That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.

[BCBUD]

Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol

I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.

That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.

Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.

[WayneFlint]

Like grey says you tell them what to do, first to establish a punch or counter takes control by feinting and kidding them into position.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

[greynotsoold]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot. This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.