Gene Tunney is not an all time great HW

**greynotsoold** · 12-14-2014 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Max Power

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

There is a lot of stuff that Roach teaches that is not 'old', for example, turning over punches. he tends to the pick them up, turn them over then throw them school of thought.
And a great many skills are lost (Miller did not teach Roach, by the way. You must be thinking of Eddie Futch). A lot of this is because great trainers did not pass on their skills. A lot of it is because guys take the easy way out- I think that is just human nature. You can see this in the the footwork modern fighters use, the way they throw their punches, their defensive liabilities. For example- the essence of boxing is counterpunching. Today the emphasis is on keeping one's hands high is a position that makes it hard to punch back, but that is easier because of the larger gloves.
You see many fighters doing everything off the front foot- by that I mean, powering their left hand punches by pushing off and never getting the weight onto the rear foot- or with thier feet too far apart. These things affect your ability to move, to defend, to throw good combinations, to move after you punch. In the ring, with me wearing punch mitts and catching your punches, if your feet are like that, I can move you off your balance, keep you from moving. Yet it is taught that way.

Yeah I appreciate some of the points your saying here but a lot of those things are present today and it's your pure speculation that it's because these skills are lost.

Vitali Klitschko has a back foot style, he was taught by a German trainer!

There are countless counterpunchers.

And don't tell me about defence because it is only in the last 30 years that boxers REALLY learned HOW to defend properly.

A far more likely scenario, is that the sport has evolved and that some of the previous skills have been emphasised which are more important and some of those skills have been de-emphasised because they were not!

Can we agree that Mayweather has been the top defensive boxer of the last decade? the staple of his defense is rolling the right hand off his shoulder, is it not? In this day and age that is treated like it is some elusive art form that only the most gifted can pursue. Take some time and find some old boxing training manuals, back from when colleges in the US had boxing teams. Teaching the shoulder roll was standard- back in the day that was how it was taught. My dad boxed in the 1930s in Pittsburgh and that is how he taught me in the early 1970s.
What changed 30 years ago...Gloves got bigger, they attached the thumbs. Before that, you didn't use the ear-muffs defense because you still got hit. You had smaller gloves which covered less of you and he had smaller gloves to slip through the openings. So you slipped, you parried, you deflected; all of these things lead to counter punch opportunities. or, you stayed out of range unless you had a reason to get within punching distance. Also, with smaller gloves, you threw better punches. You paid attention to where they were going because hitting a guy on the elbow hurt your hands, so did hitting on top of his head, and you could break your thumb in a number of ways.

**Max Power** · 12-15-2014 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Can we agree that Mayweather has been the top defensive boxer of the last decade? the staple of his defense is rolling the right hand off his shoulder, is it not? In this day and age that is treated like it is some elusive art form that only the most gifted can pursue. Take some time and find some old boxing training manuals, back from when colleges in the US had boxing teams. Teaching the shoulder roll was standard- back in the day that was how it was taught. My dad boxed in the 1930s in Pittsburgh and that is how he taught me in the early 1970s.
What changed 30 years ago...Gloves got bigger, they attached the thumbs. Before that, you didn't use the ear-muffs defense because you still got hit. You had smaller gloves which covered less of you and he had smaller gloves to slip through the openings. So you slipped, you parried, you deflected; all of these things lead to counter punch opportunities. or, you stayed out of range unless you had a reason to get within punching distance. Also, with smaller gloves, you threw better punches. You paid attention to where they were going because hitting a guy on the elbow hurt your hands, so did hitting on top of his head, and you could break your thumb in a number of ways.

@greynotsoold

Good post, and of course I would have to agree to a lot of what you wrote. The implications of it all aren't quite agreeable but let's see...

Yes, I definitely agree Mayweather, despite hating the guy with a passion, is the best defensive boxer of the last decade. I would probably go so far as to sayof all time.

In this day and age, his shoulder roll defence is treated for what it is. It can be made to work very effectively, but not reliably for everyone.

If the shoulder roll defence was fit for every boxer and was some kind of silver bullet, then every boxer would be taught it and employing it. Mayweather's family/trainers did not enjoy the same success with it, neither does Broner. This is not an example of a skill that is lost and rather, an example of economy of training.

Yes gloves got bigger. And I agree that afforded some added protection due to being able to more fully cover the face, easily parry and hit with less regard for injury to the hand. I give you that. To claim that the larger gloves were like a wall of leather or "ear-muffs" is a mild exaggeration to suit your following agenda.

I don't see any credible reason for larger gloves affecting parrying at all, only theoretically maybe leading to less slipping possibly, because they can wear it on their pillow gloves. However in practice, the best counterpunch opportunities come from making your opponent miss and then making them pay, that has not changed. I was an amateur boxer and slipping was the paramount skill we were drilled on defence wise all the time even at this level.

So what do concrete examples reveal? In all the fight footage I've ever seen I see punch baggery mainly from the past and more defensive fighters prevalent the closer to the present. That is because counter-punching relies on timing and reflexes which I'm sorry to say are greatly in excess of past times today. I see most of those old timers failing to KEEP a high guard, they often punched with their back hand down by their waist/hip, fully open (see Robinson for example).

This is maybe somewhat a reflection of what you've said too, the fact that a good guard can still be breached in earlier times and taking shots on less protected hands could lead to worse injury thus making it less worthwhile than it is today.

Basically, the sport has evolved! It has gradually metamorphosed over time from bare-knuckle boxing, to what it is today! OF COURSE bare-knuckle boxers fought in a more primal style. But it's also obvious that today, boxing has progressed into a more and more professional endeavour throughout the years.

I also agree with you that the less protection on your hands the more you had to concentrate on proper hand and finger alignment but I'm sorry, that DETRACTED from the speed and power of the punch, so really you can claim that punch quality is assisted today by modern equipment.

There is no question that fighters are more accurate punchers today, they train it explicitly. Punch accuracy, timing and reflexes was assisted by several magnitudes primarily because of the focus mitts and the increased frequency, duration and intensity of training possible with modern nutrition, medicine and management. Sure, it's a given they don't have to worry aout hitting an elbow so much now, but then again that affords them also a far more committed blow than previously also. Again, the sport evolved.

**SlimTrae** · 12-17-2014 04:09 AM

[QUOTE=greynotsoold;1288772]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

There is a lot of stuff that Roach teaches that is not 'old', for example, turning over punches. he tends to the pick them up, turn them over then throw them school of thought.
And a great many skills are lost (Miller did not teach Roach, by the way. You must be thinking of Eddie Futch). A lot of this is because great trainers did not pass on their skills. A lot of it is because guys take the easy way out- I think that is just human nature. You can see this in the the footwork modern fighters use, the way they throw their punches, their defensive liabilities. For example- the essence of boxing is counterpunching. Today the emphasis is on keeping one's hands high is a position that makes it hard to punch back, but that is easier because of the larger gloves.
You see many fighters doing everything off the front foot- by that I mean, powering their left hand punches by pushing off and never getting the weight onto the rear foot- or with thier feet too far apart. These things affect your ability to move, to defend, to throw good combinations, to move after you punch. In the ring, with me wearing punch mitts and catching your punches, if your feet are like that, I can move you off your balance, keep you from moving. Yet it is taught that way.

QUOTE]

Can we agree that Mayweather has been the top defensive boxer of the last decade? the staple of his defense is rolling the right hand off his shoulder, is it not? In this day and age that is treated like it is some elusive art form that only the most gifted can pursue. Take some time and find some old boxing training manuals, back from when colleges in the US had boxing teams. Teaching the shoulder roll was standard- back in the day that was how it was taught. My dad boxed in the 1930s in Pittsburgh and that is how he taught me in the early 1970s.
What changed 30 years ago...Gloves got bigger, they attached the thumbs. Before that, you didn't use the ear-muffs defense because you still got hit. You had smaller gloves which covered less of you and he had smaller gloves to slip through the openings. So you slipped, you parried, you deflected; all of these things lead to counter punch opportunities. or, you stayed out of range unless you had a reason to get within punching distance. Also, with smaller gloves, you threw better punches. You paid attention to where they were going because hitting a guy on the elbow hurt your hands, so did hitting on top of his head, and you could break your thumb in a number of ways.

Great class. I think referee Mills Lanes was in the last group of boxers to graduate from collegiate boxing.

**Beanflicker** · 12-17-2014 05:21 AM

I still don't think Gene Tunney is an ATG. How can you not fight black folk and be great?

**brocktonblockbust** · 12-17-2014 09:40 AM