If Wilder loses...

[Master]

I would not call Liston or Norton a bum.

What is your definition for a bum?

[Max Power]

I would not call Liston or Norton a bum.

What is your definition for a bum?

Norton and Liston WERE bum busters by definition that most of their REAL HW (200+) opponents had lost more than a quarter of their fights.

If you consider their sub 200+ opponents in their records (of which their records were significantly or even largely composed) then their records are inflated to be better against modern HW boxers records.

The reason this distinction IS important in a cross era comparison is that TODAY if they were to box, that portion of their record would be considered part of their cruiser record (one in which they were HW's fighting CW's hence had a significant weight advantage which they would not be permitted nowadays.

It's only when you put CW back to CW and delete bums that you can make an accurate HW comparison between eras.

To put it another way, if you want to include olden days boxers cruiser records as valid HW records (as they were then) then that's fine, but you THEN have to include guys like David Haye's entire career as a valid HW career too (as it was then) and all of his opponents. It then becomes very clear how much better quality opponents Haye fought, beat and how many he KOed than these guys.

You cannot have it both ways!

I simplify all this by deleting all bums and cruisers off records when making such a comparison. In my opinion, you must!

[Master]

That was the weights at those times. Your definition is nonsense. If you followed your logic then Wlad would be considered a bum in 40 years. Ridiculous.

[ykdadamaja]

It depends on how he loses. If he loses a lose decision, then we may say he is/was worth the salt.

He can't lose by ko and he can't lose by a blowout ala Jennings v. Spzilka.

[Max Power]

It depends on how he loses. If he loses a lose decision, then we may say he is/was worth the salt.

He can't lose by ko and he can't lose by a blowout ala Jennings v. Spzilka.

I think he will always be a dangerous opponent.

If he loses an (unlikely) decision, his skills failed him but his chin didn't. It will be surprising for his chin and expected given his lack of skills.

If he loses by KO, his chin failed him (unsurprising) but a KO loss does not necessarily equate to a lack of skills. You can be outboxing your opponent but get caught by a hard punch at HW.

Of course the most likely scenario is that Wilder gets both outboxed AND KOed, which will demonstrate both.

[brocktonblockbust]

anyone can outbox wilder........i have not seen any outstanding boxing skills---

WILDER KNOWS HOW TO THROW THE JAB, ONCE, TWICE, THRICE, THEN HE THROWS THE 1-2

SO GODDAM PREDICTABLE.

[ykdadamaja]

It depends on how he loses. If he loses a lose decision, then we may say he is/was worth the salt.

He can't lose by ko and he can't lose by a blowout ala Jennings v. Spzilka.

I think he will always be a dangerous opponent.

If he loses an (unlikely) decision, his skills failed him but his chin didn't. It will be surprising for his chin and expected given his lack of skills.

If he loses by KO, his chin failed him (unsurprising) but a KO loss does not necessarily equate to a lack of skills. You can be outboxing your opponent but get caught by a hard punch at HW.

Of course the most likely scenario is that Wilder gets both outboxed AND KOed, which will demonstrate both.

It all depends, to me, on whether or not the decision was a blowout. Like Jennings was on the way to a blowout UD vs. Spzilka before he stopped him in the final round.

Sometimes a ko can be better than a blowout UD. I think your last scenario was spot on too- blown out and then stopped in the 9th, 10th or 11th.

[Max Power]

That was the weights at those times. Your definition is nonsense. If you followed your logic then Wlad would be considered a bum in 40 years. Ridiculous.

No. I already conceded to you that Liston and Norton and now Wlad too were not bums and they never will be, because they all beat most of their opponents and that wont change over time.

And their opponents wont change over time either in terms of quality as boxers.

But in the future, when the weight limit is raised, and people will want to compare the then current champs record to Wlad's they will have to focus only on that portion of Wlad's record that reflects the then HW limit.

Let's say it's 220lbs. Even THEN, it will be clear, even at 230!, that Wladimir faced a good class of opposition.

Liston and Norton are qualitatively different because even given the current standard of 200lbs, their heavy competition is revealed, exposed if you will, to consist of bummy heavy opponents (mostly).

Liston and Norton will never themselves be bums. There overall opposition will never be either. But the ones that need to be focussed on, the HW worthy ones, are!

You could call them quality cruiser crunchers, real HW bum-busters LOL