Looking for the roots of terrorism

[Beanz]

#1 "The difference is here’s an ideology that appeals to them" ...a quote which could be used to describe why someone might join Al Qaeda but if you think about it, it's also something someone might say for a black person joining the Crips or Bloods.


#2 "This is an academic" ....indeed, a LEFTY, universities are overrun with them!

#3 "The best predictors turn out to be things like who your friends are and whether you belong to some action group." .....like an Al Qaeda terrorist cell

My reply was not meant just for you but seeing as you are willing to engage rationally

1. Yes there are indeed similarities there, but Jimmy and Timmy's feelings of disenfranchisement were not good reasons to join the Karazy Kripples any more than those westerners who end up becoming vehment anti-western fanatics. He is not trying to make a simple equation to explain things.


2. I think it is only in your head that academic and Lefty are interchangeable Lyle In Europe quite the opposite is often true, with Academics seen as conservative right wing members of the establishment.


3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

[Kirkland Laing]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

[El Kabong]

My reply was not meant just for you but seeing as you are willing to engage rationally

1. Yes there are indeed similarities there, but Jimmy and Timmy's feelings of disenfranchisement were not good reasons to join the Karazy Kripples any more than those westerners who end up becoming vehment anti-western fanatics. He is not trying to make a simple equation to explain things.


2. I think it is only in your head that academic and Lefty are interchangeable Lyle In Europe quite the opposite is often true, with Academics seen as conservative right wing members of the establishment.


3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

1. That's fine, but again the problem is that the idiots who want to join Al Qaeda or "The Karazy Kripples" aren't assimilating into society for whatever reason. The SAD part is these people aren't retards, they aren't sociopaths in the psychological sense of the word (which the author states plain as day), they are just filled to the brim with resentment of Western culture and values which I'm sorry if you don't like those things then leave the west. leave the US, leave the UK, go to The Islamic State, go to another country nobody is holding you hostage in the west. I am certain SOME of the jihadis and gangsters are certifiably insane but it would be just a portion of them.

2. Is it? Again, left and right are very different in England as opposed to America. In America nearly 95% of the professors and graduate assistants every University is socialist/communist/anarchist. For example Bill Ayers of The Weather Underground is a professor at the University of Chicago...the man bombed government offices for fucks sake, but in Academia he's a hero, he's revered. Timothy Leary, Mr. "Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out" was a Professor. The Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was a professor...these guys are pretty much so far left they were mentally unstable and the sad thing is....in Academia they are a dime a dozen!

3. Criminal eh? You want to see the courts handle this rather than the armed forces? Which will then see our system attacked not on a national scale, but on a much harder to control LOCAL scale. This would mean enhanced powers for local authorities which would lead to more corruption (surely we've seen it nationally with who the government has chosen to spy on recently Sharyl Attkinson).

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

So if Israel just disappeared then much of this terrorism would cease? Well great, how about YOU hand out some yellow stars to the Jews so we can round them up and gas them later.

As for US intervention, we're damned if we DO (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia) and we're damned if we DON'T (East Timor, Chechnya). Bin Laden Mr. Jihad himself was a fucking hypocrite of the highest order "The US arms Israel, whine, cry" with NOOOOO fucking mention of how the US helped his ass out against the Commies in the 80's NOR about how the US again helped his ass out against the fucking Serbs in Bosnia!

The Mujihadeen/Jihadi's what have you aren't fucking known for their rational thought processes. They hate us because they envy us plain and simple. They think they have oil they should make the rules, but they are very tribal and fight amongst themselves more than they attack the West shit look at The Islamic State, they aren't attacking the United States, I'm sure they would if they could but right now they are attacking geopolitical nation states Syria and Iraq in the attempts to erase borders and form their own nation state.

[Beanz]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

And so it begins. With the greatest respect Kirkland, what you could try doing is reading the article. What Atran is saying is that this work is simply not being done. As an Anthropologist, while it is not the end game, you can derive insights from large sample surveys but Ironically, (considering the propaganda led agenda of many) not only are wannabe Jihadis unwilling to talk, but also research ethics criteria has become too obstructive in seeking to overprotect university research students.

France did not Invade Iraq and the French gunmen made very little sense, being just as pissed off at having to pay tax, so things are not as simple as you are claiming.

[Kirkland Laing]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

And so it begins. With the greatest respect Kirkland, what you could try doing is reading the article. What Atran is saying is that this work is simply not being done. As an Anthropologist, while it is not the end game, you can derive insights from large sample surveys but Ironically, (considering the propaganda led agenda of many) not only are wannabe Jihadis unwilling to talk, but also research ethics criteria has become too obstructive in seeking to overprotect university research students.

France did not Invade Iraq and the French gunmen made very little sense, being just as pissed off at having to pay tax, so things are not as simple as you are claiming.

The French gunmen were upset about the cartoons, like I said.

France currently have their military in the Maghreb so some French Muslims are upset about that.

[ryanman]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

@Kirkland Laing that may well be true for the genesis of many of the groups and the attacks they carry out however for me it can't be the definitive reason to explain Islamic extremism as there are things that don't fit.
Boko Haram for instance are not engaging in Anti-Western activities.
ISIS were happy to have no involvement and conflict with the US.

There is more to terrorism than just blow back against countries that have interfered.
If it were simply that then as I said before we would also be having a spate of international terrorist groups emanating from South and Central America.

There are a multitude of reasons for the spate of Islamic extremist groups and I think that an anti-west agenda is just one of those reasons. For some groups it is the primary reason, yet for others it doesn't really feature at all. So for me it isn't a satisfactory (complete) explanation.

[El Kabong]

There is more to terrorism than just blow back against countries that have interfered.

"Awww but that doesn't fit my agenda" - KirklandLaing

[Kirkland Laing]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

@Kirkland Laing that may well be true for the genesis of many of the groups and the attacks they carry out however for me it can't be the definitive reason to explain Islamic extremism as there are things that don't fit.
Boko Haram for instance are not engaging in Anti-Western activities.
ISIS were happy to have no involvement and conflict with the US.

There is more to terrorism than just blow back against countries that have interfered.
If it were simply that then as I said before we would also be having a spate of international terrorist groups emanating from South and Central America.

There are a multitude of reasons for the spate of Islamic extremist groups and I think that an anti-west agenda is just one of those reasons. For some groups it is the primary reason, yet for others it doesn't really feature at all. So for me it isn't a satisfactory (complete) explanation.

For over half a century now Saudi Arabia has been funding radical Islam all over the world. The Saudi brand of Islam, Wahaabism, is pretty indistinguishable from the brand practiced under ISIS. Saudi have funded the building of mosques all over the Muslim world including Nigeria, Pakistan, Britain and so on and they in most cases get radical Waahabi imans preaching in them as part of the deal.

Fundamentalist Islam used to be a minority thing but due to Saudi money it's becoming the dominant strain of religion. Preachers funded by Saudi and Gulf state money are all over the world and the internet preaching hate. This is the ideological foundation of groups like Al Quaeda and ISIS.

If we didn't involve ourselves in their part of the world they'd be far too busy fighting amongst themselves to bother about us (see Syria pre our involvement) but once we get involved then some of them are going to respond violently.

[Kirkland Laing]

Also, too. South American or Vietnamese or whoever groups who would like to fight back against America need money and organisation. The Saudis/Gulf states provide the money for all these Islamic groups and initially the Americans provided the organisation ( Saudi/Arab fighters going to fight in Afghanistan against the Soviets and being trained by the US).

Now they have military know-how and basically unlimited military funding from Saudi and the Gulf states.

[brocktonblockbust]

Nice.

[Andre]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

@Kirkland Laing that may well be true for the genesis of many of the groups and the attacks they carry out however for me it can't be the definitive reason to explain Islamic extremism as there are things that don't fit.
Boko Haram for instance are not engaging in Anti-Western activities.
ISIS were happy to have no involvement and conflict with the US.

There is more to terrorism than just blow back against countries that have interfered.
If it were simply that then as I said before we would also be having a spate of international terrorist groups emanating from South and Central America.

There are a multitude of reasons for the spate of Islamic extremist groups and I think that an anti-west agenda is just one of those reasons. For some groups it is the primary reason, yet for others it doesn't really feature at all. So for me it isn't a satisfactory (complete) explanation.

For over half a century now Saudi Arabia has been funding radical Islam all over the world. The Saudi brand of Islam, Wahaabism, is pretty indistinguishable from the brand practiced under ISIS. Saudi have funded the building of mosques all over the Muslim world including Nigeria, Pakistan, Britain and so on and they in most cases get radical Waahabi imans preaching in them as part of the deal.

Fundamentalist Islam used to be a minority thing but due to Saudi money it's becoming the dominant strain of religion. Preachers funded by Saudi and Gulf state money are all over the world and the internet preaching hate. This is the ideological foundation of groups like Al Quaeda and ISIS.

If we didn't involve ourselves in their part of the world they'd be far too busy fighting amongst themselves to bother about us (see Syria pre our involvement) but once we get involved then some of them are going to respond violently.

For real, bang on the money.

[brocktonblockbust]

there is a real threat, and there are those who will not offer solutions. To them the obsession is to at all costs remain altruistic and humane which I too am all for, but solutions are being avoided at the real expense of foregone time, losing the jump on it day by day as it builds globally. I have advocated seriously coming up with strategies similar to what @Andre has suggested as well, to rout out the maybe 1% of extremist cells/groups among them as well. I have suggested (and even taken a small bit of action here in Turkey with) fantastic strategies of community outreach, relationship building, working together with imams to identify individuals who may be overheard or observed speaking about planning violent acts, etc. or exhibiting in the opinion of an imam a dangerous extremist behavior, calls for violent jihad against innocent people, etc. But there are those who will say there is some problem or other with this, and yet will offer no solution of their own. Its easy to sit back singing Kum-Ba-Ya and say what the solution is NOT, that is the contrarian's way of not sticking one's neck out and offering a solution.

[Beanz]

there is a real threat, and there are those who will not offer solutions. To them the obsession is to at all costs remain altruistic and humane which I too am all for, but solutions are being avoided at the real expense of foregone time, losing the jump on it day by day as it builds globally. I have advocated seriously coming up with strategies similar to what @Andre has suggested as well, to rout out the maybe 1% of extremist cells/groups among them as well. I have suggested (and even taken a small bit of action here in Turkey with) fantastic strategies of community outreach, relationship building, working together with imams to identify individuals who may be overheard or observed speaking about planning violent acts, etc. or exhibiting in the opinion of an imam a dangerous extremist behavior, calls for violent jihad against innocent people, etc. But there are those who will say there is some problem or other with this, and yet will offer no solution of their own. Its easy to sit back singing Kum-Ba-Ya and say what the solution is NOT, that is the contrarian's way of not sticking one's neck out and offering a solution.

Within seconds

[Beanz]

there is a real threat, and there are those who will not offer solutions. To them the obsession is to at all costs remain altruistic and humane which I too am all for, but solutions are being avoided at the real expense of foregone time, losing the jump on it day by day as it builds globally. I have advocated seriously coming up with strategies similar to what @Andre has suggested as well, to rout out the maybe 1% of extremist cells/groups among them as well. I have suggested (and even taken a small bit of action here in Turkey with) fantastic strategies of community outreach, relationship building, working together with imams to identify individuals who may be overheard or observed speaking about planning violent acts, etc. or exhibiting in the opinion of an imam a dangerous extremist behavior, calls for violent jihad against innocent people, etc. But there are those who will say there is some problem or other with this, and yet will offer no solution of their own. Its easy to sit back singing Kum-Ba-Ya and say what the solution is NOT, that is the contrarian's way of not sticking one's neck out and offering a solution.

It is merely your assertion that is my obsession. It is quite obvious that in reality the one thing I could not be so easily labelled as, is a pussy footer. While it is lovely to hear you boasting about your "fantastic strategies" in a country and religion that apparently is not your own, It's quite difficult to believe much that you say. When you can bring yourself to address me in person then maybe others will start to see promise in your new found ambassadorial role. I offer no easy solutions because I am not so arrogant or naive to think that is within my ability. Did you mention to your Muslim friends your desire to shut all the Mosques in Europe or your desire to personally vet the English speaking ability of all Immigrants to the UK and USA or your desire to do unspeakable things and rub pork fat into the mouths of Terrorists or your Bwaaahhhaaahaaing every faith and religion and their gullible followers?

You can call me a bleeding heart liberal until you are blue in the face and dismiss me as a do gooder or some other nefarious bullshit reduction, but it won't make your own argument any stronger and it certainly will do nothing to let things move forward.

[Andre]

3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

There are both though! We have home grown terrorists and we have home grown fighters who head back to their birth places to fight for Allah and Mohammad.

Some work single for sure, like that fuckwit in Sydney who killed in the cafe recently. But many also eventually are organized into cells too its a fact,911 was a group of men who broke into 3 organized cells on a timed hit, how can it be seen any other way? It occurs both ways so why only look one way at it I dont really get it?

Unless maybe we are on total crossed purposes here mate and I think you might be talking about and are trying to stem the real dumb from within our western societies getting ideas and heading for the Mosques and disrupting the innocent families there -young angry men eventually going in with the old style like the shaved heads and bother boots of old routine to rout them out in their evil dopey mindless fucking way.Those types of people who get dumbed down enough to attack Muslim women on trains etc.
That has to be your thoughts here?

There are young -------- (you fill in the blanks call em what you like, see what you come up with as a term Id be very interested) men leaving our shores to go and fight against our armies overseas.Thats a fact happened in the Afgan conflict to a minor degree now in Syria ina larger degree, we cant stop them returning back to their birth home to fight for Allah and Mohammads cause of Jihad;its happening,it is an occurrence.
They are not single criminals and physcopaths.

Where they form into groups was the main item and the main question raised here in this journos works.Not if they form into groups.

Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?

I cant think of any answer for that question, except "they are not hiding in amongst their own religion". I await to stand corrected on that view.

The fundamentalist groups these lads aim at joining have recently stated to these would be soldiers of Allah and Mohammad the last prophet; "Stay in your countries there and spill blood there". Sure some fuckwits will singly get up and do exactly that. Some will be in pairs some in threes or more.

I dont get the one eyed views either way, as if it all has to be viewed one way or the other which somehow makes one view right and one wrong. This is a big subject with many fights on many fronts you cant white wash all occurrences away with one other new found true fact and that was this journalists approach it wasnt just reporting it was nailing a flag in and making a claim. (Just my view,trying to look at it both ways so to speak).