What makes an ATG?

[VG_Addict]

IMO, the step to making a prospect into a great fighter is to put him in against guys with all kinds of styles, who will give him different looks.

Floyd fought a southpaw in only his 2nd professional fight.

[Beanflicker]

IMO, the step to making a prospect into a great fighter is to put him in against guys with all kinds of styles, who will give him different looks.

Floyd fought a southpaw in only his 2nd professional fight.

Yup. People constantly shit on guys like Floyd and Wlad and try to claim they aren't ATGs, but those guys have fought and consistently beat just about every style and body type you can think of.

[El Kabong]

Wlad has fought more southpaws in title fights than anyone else I can think of. It wasn't until 1966 when Ali fought Karl Mildenberger, that a southpaw actually fought for the heavyweight title....Wlad has fought: Tony Thompson x 2, Chris Byrd x 2, Corrie Sanders, Ruslan Chagaev, Sultan Ibragimov, and Francisco Pianetta....that's a lot of southpaws for a heavyweight to fight.

[Beanflicker]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

[El Kabong]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

Gene Tunney was a great fighter, great light heavyweight. Jack Dempsey was THE superstar of his era....these are things we can't argue with, but you're right they didn't fight all of the best fighters out there, same as Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb didn't hit against Black Pitchers (not that it would have mattered all that much just due to talent)...it raises doubts but not enough to really dismiss their greatness.

But to that end, Wlad has done an excellent job as Champion and is certainly and All-Time Great, I just think it's a shame that pussy Nicolay Valuev never fought Wlad or Vitali, and never really even pressed to.

[Beanflicker]

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would have been second rate if they had to play against blacks and so would Dempsey and Tunney.

[El Kabong]

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would have been second rate if they had to play against blacks and so would Dempsey and Tunney.

The reason I disagree is that Boxing has a clear cut guy that is THE MAN and baseball being a team sport is less about the individual so it wouldn't have been Satchel Paige vs Babe Ruth 3 outs an inning for 9 innings....both could excel and do fine. In boxing you have Jack Dempsey, his manager supposedly turned down a fight vs Harry Wills or Sam Langford well after their primes, because they wanted a tune up fight not a tooth and nail battle.

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would ALWAYS be Hall of Famers regardless of who they played against, just look at the numbers. Sure there was Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, James 'Cool Papa' Bell and they were greats themselves but the Negro Leagues were by no means deeper with talent than the MLB especially with pitchers. Comparing and contrasting these guys and debating on how they would do is all speculation but I know and am 100% certain that the big stars of that baseball era would have still been big stars regardless of Blacks or Hispanics or Asians being on their teams....big shout out to Worldwide HR record holder Sadaharu Oh who had 868 homeruns for the Yomiuri Giants albeit in a league that was certainly lower caliber than the MLB in his era 1959-1980.

But yeah black boxers back in the day there were a lot of them that could have been and should have been champions especially Willis and Langford

[greynotsoold]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

Fighting southpaws really shouldn't be a big deal any more because every other fighter is a southpaw. It used to be problematic because they were very rare and it isn't like it is impossible to do anyway. especially when modern southpaws throw nothing but straight left hands, and extra especially when you are 6'7" and can reach over the top of them.
dempsey fought black guys on the way up. Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

[Beanflicker]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

[brocktonblockbust]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

this may indeed be true. And if so then Rocky Marciano sure did fight the best black boxers that were out there at the time