What makes an ATG?

[Beanflicker]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

[El Kabong]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

Gene Tunney was a great fighter, great light heavyweight. Jack Dempsey was THE superstar of his era....these are things we can't argue with, but you're right they didn't fight all of the best fighters out there, same as Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb didn't hit against Black Pitchers (not that it would have mattered all that much just due to talent)...it raises doubts but not enough to really dismiss their greatness.

But to that end, Wlad has done an excellent job as Champion and is certainly and All-Time Great, I just think it's a shame that pussy Nicolay Valuev never fought Wlad or Vitali, and never really even pressed to.

[Beanflicker]

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would have been second rate if they had to play against blacks and so would Dempsey and Tunney.

[El Kabong]

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would have been second rate if they had to play against blacks and so would Dempsey and Tunney.

The reason I disagree is that Boxing has a clear cut guy that is THE MAN and baseball being a team sport is less about the individual so it wouldn't have been Satchel Paige vs Babe Ruth 3 outs an inning for 9 innings....both could excel and do fine. In boxing you have Jack Dempsey, his manager supposedly turned down a fight vs Harry Wills or Sam Langford well after their primes, because they wanted a tune up fight not a tooth and nail battle.

Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would ALWAYS be Hall of Famers regardless of who they played against, just look at the numbers. Sure there was Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, James 'Cool Papa' Bell and they were greats themselves but the Negro Leagues were by no means deeper with talent than the MLB especially with pitchers. Comparing and contrasting these guys and debating on how they would do is all speculation but I know and am 100% certain that the big stars of that baseball era would have still been big stars regardless of Blacks or Hispanics or Asians being on their teams....big shout out to Worldwide HR record holder Sadaharu Oh who had 868 homeruns for the Yomiuri Giants albeit in a league that was certainly lower caliber than the MLB in his era 1959-1980.

But yeah black boxers back in the day there were a lot of them that could have been and should have been champions especially Willis and Langford

[greynotsoold]

But people will put a guy like Gene Tunney or Jack Dempsey over Wlad, guys who never had to fight southpaws and ducked all black challengers

Fighting southpaws really shouldn't be a big deal any more because every other fighter is a southpaw. It used to be problematic because they were very rare and it isn't like it is impossible to do anyway. especially when modern southpaws throw nothing but straight left hands, and extra especially when you are 6'7" and can reach over the top of them.
dempsey fought black guys on the way up. Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

[Beanflicker]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

[brocktonblockbust]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

this may indeed be true. And if so then Rocky Marciano sure did fight the best black boxers that were out there at the time

[SlimTrae]

As a black man: I don't get downing Tunney for what was common in his day. The last time I checked Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins and a few other blacks have lost to dare I say, white guys.

[Master]

The economic conditions mean that the poorest people go into boxing Irish, Jews, Italians, Mexican and Blacks.

Skin colour does not make a great fighter.

[goti71]

The economic conditions mean that the poorest people go into boxing Irish, Jews, Italians, Mexican and Blacks.

Skin colour does not make a great fighter.

Clear as water; it's a matter of statistical probability.

[Beanflicker]

Skin colour does not make a great fighter.

No but it does mean (on average) a higher quality of athlete.

Black people have largely dominated the sport of boxing (especially the HW division) since they were given the opportunities they deserved. Why would anyone think the Dempsey/Tunney era would be any different?

To me it's a tainted era and I don't put much stock into those guys. People like to talk about how "protected" guys are today and how they don't take the fights they should.

[Beanflicker]

Can you name the worthy black challengers during Tunney's HW title reign?

No one can because they weren't given a shot and stayed in obscurity.

All I know is that blacks are generally stronger and more athletic than whites (their testosterone levels are higher on average, it's science). So if you're not competing against black men, you're not fighting the best fighters you can. Gene Tunney never fought the best fighters he could have.

this may indeed be true. And if so then Rocky Marciano sure did fight the best black boxers that were out there at the time

Yes and that's why the Rock is an ATG HW legend and a true warrior of the sport.