"Ali hate"..... what's the point??

[TitoFan]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

Yeah Bean. That's pretty much my point. I'm not pushing the hero agenda, but I bristle when people that weren't even around during those times, nor had the same experiences in life that he did.... are quick to label him a coward..... or even suggest they know why he refused to be drafted. Like I've said before.... there are haters and there are HATERS. I know you can debate your point rationally because you're not a HATER the way I view them, which is they block out any rational counter arguments because it does not fuel their irrational hate.

[Beanflicker]

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

[TitoFan]

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

I don't think we're on opposite sides here. I've never considered him to be a hero for anything regarding his decision to dodge the draft. I do think, however, that it took guts for standing up to the establishment in that way, especially considering how much he stood to lose. It would've been easier for him to just go along with it, especially knowing (like HATER Bill said) that he wasn't going to be put in the front lines or anything like that.

But forget all that, for a moment. Think about the focus his actions put on the racial issues in America during those times. Think about all those blacks that said "Damn... he's right. Why should we go fight the Vietcong? They never called us niggers." Think about the whites that must've thought "Hmm.... maybe he's got a point there. We're asking them to put their lives on the line, but here in America we treat them like shit."

Bottom line is... many of us are glad he made the decision he made. And it cost him, too. Three prime years of his professional career. Think how much more he could've added to his professional legacy.

[Bill Paxtom]

Lt. Col. Peter Dewey

The 1st American Soldier to die {shot and killed} in Vietnam.

I wonder how many of the Viet Cong called him 'a nigger'.

[TitoFan]

How is that even an argument, Bill?

Never mind.....

[Bill Paxtom]

How is that even an argument, Bill?

Never mind.....

TitoFan

It takes a deep intellect to understand the 'angle' on that one.

I believe that post is 'too deep' for you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Of course I played the 'dumb blonde' in all those movies. They see a pretty blonde,
and automatically assume that I'm ditzy, and a 'Fucking' moron."

Judy Holliday

IQ .... '172' .. Very Superior Intelligence

[TitoFan]

[brocktonblockbust]

Cassius Clay called Archie Moore all kinds of insulting names and openly mocked him. Moore was 48 and clay was 24 then.

Archie Moore was perhaps the most kind, interesting. entrepreneurial, good hearted, humble man boxing has ever seen. who in their right mind would want to disrespect the great iconic Archie Moore?

Where was clays respect for his elders?

[Bill Paxtom]

Cassius Clay called Archie Moore all kinds of insulting names and openly mocked him. Moore was 48 and clay was 24 then.

Archie Moore was perhaps the most kind, interesting. entrepreneurial, good hearted, humble man boxing has ever seen. who in their right mind would want to disrespect the great iconic Archie Moore?

Where was clays respect for his elders?

If you really 'Peel the Onion',

Most will realize that Cassius Clay was an 'ingrate'.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I never thought much of Cassius Clay. After 5-Minutes, I found him to be dull and quite boring."

Hedy Lamar

[Master]

Cassius Clay called Archie Moore all kinds of insulting names and openly mocked him. Moore was 48 and clay was 24 then.

Archie Moore was perhaps the most kind, interesting. entrepreneurial, good hearted, humble man boxing has ever seen. who in their right mind would want to disrespect the great iconic Archie Moore?

Where was clays respect for his elders?

What else you going to bring up? Ali trained with Archie Moore and had a lot of respect for him.

[Master]

Not many for obvious reasons, Bill you prat.

[Bill Paxtom]

1967

Carl Walker, Assistant District Attorney "United States', who helped prosecute Cassius Clay.

Mr. Carl Walker {who was black}, stated,

"Cassius Clay changed his story several times. First it was because of his religious beliefs.
Then it was because he was a good citizen in America, and was an honorable man. Then he
wanted a deferment because he had several upcoming Championship bouts lined up."

"Then it was the Muslim faith. Then he claimed to be a Minister."

"I didn't believe him at all. But I didn't make the Decision, I only presented a case. The
'Jury' of 6 men and 6 women found him guilty."

"That is our system, good, bad or indifferent. Did I make my points, Yes I think I did."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Yes, you did make a 'point'. Two of them are good enough for me"

Kim Novak

[Master]

1967

Carl Walker, Assistant District Attorney "United States', who helped prosecute Cassius Clay.

Mr. Carl Walker {who was black}, stated,

"Cassius Clay changed his story several times. First it was because of his religious beliefs.
Then it was because he was a good citizen in America, and was an honorable man. Then he
wanted a deferment because he had several upcoming Championship bouts lined up."

"Then it was the Muslim faith. Then he claimed to be a Minister."

"I didn't believe him at all. But I didn't make the Decision, I only presented a case. The
'Jury' of 6 men and 6 women found him guilty."

"That is our system, good, bad or indifferent."

The system was indifferent then. Ali won the case eventually.

[Bill Paxtom]

1967

Carl Walker, Assistant District Attorney "United States', who helped prosecute Cassius Clay.

Mr. Carl Walker {who was black}, stated,

"Cassius Clay changed his story several times. First it was because of his religious beliefs.
Then it was because he was a good citizen in America, and was an honorable man. Then he
wanted a deferment because he had several upcoming Championship bouts lined up."

"Then it was the Muslim faith. Then he claimed to be a Minister."

"I didn't believe him at all. But I didn't make the Decision, I only presented a case. The
'Jury' of 6 men and 6 women found him guilty."

"That is our system, good, bad or indifferent. Did I make my points, Yes I think I did."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Yes, you did make a 'point'. Two of them are good enough for me"

Kim Novak

I hear you.

[Bill Paxtom]

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

I don't think we're on opposite sides here. I've never considered him to be a hero for anything regarding his decision to dodge the draft. I do think, however, that it took guts for standing up to the establishment in that way, especially considering how much he stood to lose. It would've been easier for him to just go along with it, especially knowing (like HATER Bill said) that he wasn't going to be put in the front lines or anything like that.

But forget all that, for a moment. Think about the focus his actions put on the racial issues in America during those times. Think about all those blacks that said "Damn... he's right. Why should we go fight the Vietcong? They never called us niggers." Think about the whites that must've thought "Hmm.... maybe he's got a point there. We're asking them to put their lives on the line, but here in America we treat them like shit."

Bottom line is... many of us are glad he made the decision he made. And it cost him, too. Three prime years of his professional career. Think how much more he could've added to his professional legacy.

Tito-Fan,

You're 'brown-nosing' when you don't have to.

It's not very becoming sir.

You're taking Cassius Clay's views from 1966/1967 {Age; 25}. This from a guy who
was evaluated as having 'borderline mental retardation'.

Now that is 'Fucking' scary.